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You say this like it is a bad thing. I used Signal, which is an open-source messaging app. If Apple were censoring messaging apps I would agree with your seemin

You say this like it is a bad thing. I used Signal, which is an open-source messaging app. If Apple were censoring messaging apps I would agree with your seemingly negative sentiment, however, as someone who has pushed out apps to the Apple and Mac app stores, I can say they absolutely do not do that. There are many reasons many IT folks actually prefer an iPhone over Android. The two biggest ones are privacy and security. Google, thus far, takes neither seriously. Google routinely sells your data (including location data, active timestamps for all apps, what you search for, the list goes on), and it routinely has malware show up on the play store. If Google could fix those issues and stop also murdering their various applications every year, maybe they'd be able to compete. While it may sound like I have a hard-on for Apple products, I really do love Android, I just hate Google.

aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
GrapheneOS.org
smoldesu 4y ago
Apple also collects timestamps for app usage (iOS and MacOS), tracks Spotlight usage and tracks your iPhone with Find My by default. This insidious behavior is widespread, and saying it's only Google's issue is comically hypocritical. Malware is a rampant issue on both operating systems, both iOS 16 and Android 12 have zero-click exploits that allow completely rooted control of the device. I'd argue Google competes just fine. If you hate Google, then use AOSP or an AOSP-derived OS; there's not a drop of Google, Apple or anyone code out of the box. Of course, I'd wager that 'privacy and security' don't matter as much to IT folks as brand-loyalty or ease-of-use, so it's all a bit of a moot point in the end. Arguing that either of these OSes is more secure than the other is a bad comedy routine; they're both being spied on by PRISM, they're both vulnerable to NSO Pegasus.
- musicale 4y ago
  > Apple also collects timestamps for app usage (iOS and MacOS), tracks Spotlight usage and tracks your iPhone with Find My by default Hmm, as I understand it: "Timestamps for app usage": notarization checks happen the first time you start a new app, basically like OCSP to enable certificate revocation: https://support.apple.com/guide/security/gatekeeper-and-runtime-protection-sec5599b66df/ https://support.apple.com/guide/security/gatekeeper-and-runt... I dislike online validation and would prefer a revocation list. I also dislike syspolicyd's perpetual, repeated, and CPU-hungry anti-malware scanning. Installing Xcode or enabling developer mode allows pointless online checks to be turned off for scripts in Terminal at least. "tracks spotlight usage": Siri suggestions https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/siri-suggestions-search/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/siri-suggestions... I usually turn this off. "Find My": a feature that allows you to go to icloud.com and locate your iPhone if it is lost, and also creates its own ad hoc network for finding iPhones. Probably that involves location information. I usually turn this off. What I'd like to know is: Is there any evidence that Apple is retaining this information and using it for other purposes, for example to build user-specific profiles for advertising the way Google or Facebook might?
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    > What I'd like to know is: Is there any evidence that Apple is retaining this information and using it for other purposes Sure; all sorts of data leaves your iPhone in the form of encrypted channels to Apple servers, whether you have telemetry/analytics enabled or not. When you fully power-down your iPhone with Find My disabled, your Baseband modem is still sending and receiving information from nearby cell towers. Apple has created conduits specifically for harvesting and retaining this data, they wouldn't collect it all if this wasn't the case. Oh, and if you still don't believe me, you should look into some of the more recent PRISM revelations (eg. how iMessage and Find My can be used by law enforcement), or the ways that the CCP uses the data Apple collects for them. There is nothing besides marketing that suggests Apple has a commitment to privacy or security.
    - musicale 4y ago
      > There is nothing besides marketing that suggests Apple has a commitment to privacy or security That is not what I hear from people who work there. > you should look into some of the more recent PRISM revelations (eg. how iMessage and Find My can be used by law enforcement), or the ways that the CCP uses the data Apple collects for them I'd be interested in references/citations if you have them.
username190 4y ago
> If Apple were censoring messaging apps I would agree with your seemingly negative sentiment, however, as someone who has pushed out apps to the Apple and Mac app stores, I can say they absolutely do not do that. Perhaps not in your country, but they've certainly done it before - censoring Telegram in both Russia[0] and Iran[1], for example. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/31/technology/telegram-apple-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/31/technology/telegram-apple... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/world/middleeast/iran-telegram-app-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/world/middleeast/iran-tel...
- imbnwa 4y ago
  Are you really suggesting governments requiring those apps be banned from distribution in their jurisdictions shares the context of the post you're replying to?
  - d-lowl 4y ago
    Yes. As for some other mobile OSs I'm not required to comply with whatever is on their official store, and can just install an app from a different source.
- sbuk 4y ago
  What’s to stop governments banning RCS?
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    The fact that more secure alternatives are freely available, and by sabotaging SMS/iMessage they would be losing their wiretap on the nation's text messages?
nucleardog 4y ago
> There are many reasons many IT folks actually prefer an iPhone over Android. The two biggest ones are privacy and security. I've been downvoted to hell for it before, but I'll add mine to this list because I don't _think_ it's all that uncommon either: I don't want another PC to administer and support. I've had a lot of Android phones over the years (started with the ADP1!). Taking my last one as an example--it stopped receiving updates way too soon. Once apps started breaking, I ended up updating it by putting LineageOS on it. But then my camera never worked right again because apparently there's a driver issue. One time I updated and my microphone stopped working in phone calls so I had to wipe the thing and install an older OS on it... You know what that sounds like to me these days? _Work_. That's literally the same sort of stuff I'm doing all friggin' day. Between work and my kid I'm lucky if I've got a couple hours a day to portion out to chores around the acreage and maybe whatever I could do ostensibly for fun. The last thing I want is to be obligated to work more because my damn phone is being a PC and doing PC things. The fact that it's not customizable, not open, and just generally an appliance _is a feature to me_. My five year old phone is still receiving regular updates. I install them, it keeps working. I can't mess with it (and and up breaking things) even if I want to. I don't have to think about how I want the phone to work because it just works the Apple way and if I don't like it I can just get a different phone. If anything ever does go wrong, I don't need to fix it because I _can't_, reimage the phone if that doesn't work then well you're screwed. Basically, I treat it the same way I do a toaster. It does what it does, there's a single big knob that makes my options clear. If that knob can't make it do what I want then I either learn to live with it or find another toaster. It's never gonna cook a steak for me, and that's fine. I'd rather not have steak or use another device to cook my steak than shun the toaster and try and pan-fry myself toast every morning. I pay a premium to get an appliance instead of a PC because I _want_ an appliance. I'm happy I can outsource all the decisions and work and keep the brain space free. Sorry if I'm contributing to the downfall of society and freedom or whatever, but I just don't have the time to do anything else anymore.
- int_19h 4y ago
  The big difference between a toaster and your phone is that the phone gets updates. Which, aside from fixing things, also do stuff like change UI. On Android, when Google comes up with some new inane idea for the launcher, I can at least install a different one. On iOS, when Apple does the same, I don't really have a choice other than to go along with it.
paganel 4y ago
> You say this like it is a bad thing. It has been a bad thing for me because iOS decided to get me off Whtasapp and forced me using the much worse Apple message system without me having any say in it. I have a SE and a relatively older iOS version on it, can't remember exactly which one. I don't have internet banking and don't have very much of a financial presence online, and, as such, I don't care that much about security on my phone (hence the older iOS version). Some time ago I had checked the "offload apps"in case of full disk" option or something like that, with the implicit understanding, from my part, that I could "reload" any of those apps once I would have made enough space available (usually by deleting some older videos and photos). One of those offloaded apps was Whatsapp. It turns out I cannot "reload" any of those offloaded apps if any one of them doesn't support my iOS version anymore. Whatsapp doesn't support my iOS version anymore, hence I cannot "reload" it, hence I cannot use it anymore. Trying to install the exact Whatsapp "version" that used to worked perfectly fine on my phone is, of course, impossible. This is very unsatisfactory for me. And back to the subject at hand, of course that Apple can't hold a candle when it comes to more mature messaging systems like Whatsapp (I haven't used Telegram and Signal). The "upload photos" experience in iMessage is day and night worse and less intuitive compared to Whatsapp. I also don't know if iMessage has any builtin groups and, even if it were to have, it would be of no use to me because more than half of my friends and acquaintances don't own an iPhone so they can't use iMessage.
- skinnymuch 4y ago
  I’ve been able to download apps that require newer OSes on iPhone. If I have downloaded it before, it lets me download the last compatible version. Is this not the case with WhatsApp or somethinh
  - paganel 4y ago
    Yes, I have the “cloud”-y thingie close to the WhatsApp icon, meaning is offloaded. When clicking on the item to “load” it again it tries to do just that, only to give me a “Unable to download” message (or something similar) a few seconds later. I’ve tried searching for the app directly in the AppStore, I cannot find it anymore, presumably because of that older iOS I have running. Forgot to mention, the same happened to me with the Google Maps (?!) app also last year or so.

aaaaaaaaata 4y ago

GrapheneOS.org

smoldesu 4y ago

Apple also collects timestamps for app usage (iOS and MacOS), tracks Spotlight usage and tracks your iPhone with Find My by default. This insidious behavior is widespread, and saying it's only Google's issue is comically hypocritical. Malware is a rampant issue on both operating systems, both iOS 16 and Android 12 have zero-click exploits that allow completely rooted control of the device. I'd argue Google competes just fine. If you hate Google, then use AOSP or an AOSP-derived OS; there's not a drop of Google, Apple or anyone code out of the box. Of course, I'd wager that 'privacy and security' don't matter as much to IT folks as brand-loyalty or ease-of-use, so it's all a bit of a moot point in the end. Arguing that either of these OSes is more secure than the other is a bad comedy routine; they're both being spied on by PRISM, they're both vulnerable to NSO Pegasus.

musicale 4y ago
> Apple also collects timestamps for app usage (iOS and MacOS), tracks Spotlight usage and tracks your iPhone with Find My by default Hmm, as I understand it: "Timestamps for app usage": notarization checks happen the first time you start a new app, basically like OCSP to enable certificate revocation: https://support.apple.com/guide/security/gatekeeper-and-runtime-protection-sec5599b66df/ https://support.apple.com/guide/security/gatekeeper-and-runt... I dislike online validation and would prefer a revocation list. I also dislike syspolicyd's perpetual, repeated, and CPU-hungry anti-malware scanning. Installing Xcode or enabling developer mode allows pointless online checks to be turned off for scripts in Terminal at least. "tracks spotlight usage": Siri suggestions https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/siri-suggestions-search/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/siri-suggestions... I usually turn this off. "Find My": a feature that allows you to go to icloud.com and locate your iPhone if it is lost, and also creates its own ad hoc network for finding iPhones. Probably that involves location information. I usually turn this off. What I'd like to know is: Is there any evidence that Apple is retaining this information and using it for other purposes, for example to build user-specific profiles for advertising the way Google or Facebook might?
- smoldesu 4y ago
  > What I'd like to know is: Is there any evidence that Apple is retaining this information and using it for other purposes Sure; all sorts of data leaves your iPhone in the form of encrypted channels to Apple servers, whether you have telemetry/analytics enabled or not. When you fully power-down your iPhone with Find My disabled, your Baseband modem is still sending and receiving information from nearby cell towers. Apple has created conduits specifically for harvesting and retaining this data, they wouldn't collect it all if this wasn't the case. Oh, and if you still don't believe me, you should look into some of the more recent PRISM revelations (eg. how iMessage and Find My can be used by law enforcement), or the ways that the CCP uses the data Apple collects for them. There is nothing besides marketing that suggests Apple has a commitment to privacy or security.
  - musicale 4y ago
    > There is nothing besides marketing that suggests Apple has a commitment to privacy or security That is not what I hear from people who work there. > you should look into some of the more recent PRISM revelations (eg. how iMessage and Find My can be used by law enforcement), or the ways that the CCP uses the data Apple collects for them I'd be interested in references/citations if you have them.

username190 4y ago

> If Apple were censoring messaging apps I would agree with your seemingly negative sentiment, however, as someone who has pushed out apps to the Apple and Mac app stores, I can say they absolutely do not do that. Perhaps not in your country, but they've certainly done it before - censoring Telegram in both Russia[0] and Iran[1], for example. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/31/technology/telegram-apple-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/31/technology/telegram-apple... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/world/middleeast/iran-telegram-app-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/01/world/middleeast/iran-tel...

imbnwa 4y ago
Are you really suggesting governments requiring those apps be banned from distribution in their jurisdictions shares the context of the post you're replying to?
- d-lowl 4y ago
  Yes. As for some other mobile OSs I'm not required to comply with whatever is on their official store, and can just install an app from a different source.
sbuk 4y ago
What’s to stop governments banning RCS?
- smoldesu 4y ago
  The fact that more secure alternatives are freely available, and by sabotaging SMS/iMessage they would be losing their wiretap on the nation's text messages?

nucleardog 4y ago

> There are many reasons many IT folks actually prefer an iPhone over Android. The two biggest ones are privacy and security. I've been downvoted to hell for it before, but I'll add mine to this list because I don't _think_ it's all that uncommon either: I don't want another PC to administer and support. I've had a lot of Android phones over the years (started with the ADP1!). Taking my last one as an example--it stopped receiving updates way too soon. Once apps started breaking, I ended up updating it by putting LineageOS on it. But then my camera never worked right again because apparently there's a driver issue. One time I updated and my microphone stopped working in phone calls so I had to wipe the thing and install an older OS on it... You know what that sounds like to me these days? _Work_. That's literally the same sort of stuff I'm doing all friggin' day. Between work and my kid I'm lucky if I've got a couple hours a day to portion out to chores around the acreage and maybe whatever I could do ostensibly for fun. The last thing I want is to be obligated to work more because my damn phone is being a PC and doing PC things. The fact that it's not customizable, not open, and just generally an appliance _is a feature to me_. My five year old phone is still receiving regular updates. I install them, it keeps working. I can't mess with it (and and up breaking things) even if I want to. I don't have to think about how I want the phone to work because it just works the Apple way and if I don't like it I can just get a different phone. If anything ever does go wrong, I don't need to fix it because I _can't_, reimage the phone if that doesn't work then well you're screwed. Basically, I treat it the same way I do a toaster. It does what it does, there's a single big knob that makes my options clear. If that knob can't make it do what I want then I either learn to live with it or find another toaster. It's never gonna cook a steak for me, and that's fine. I'd rather not have steak or use another device to cook my steak than shun the toaster and try and pan-fry myself toast every morning. I pay a premium to get an appliance instead of a PC because I _want_ an appliance. I'm happy I can outsource all the decisions and work and keep the brain space free. Sorry if I'm contributing to the downfall of society and freedom or whatever, but I just don't have the time to do anything else anymore.

int_19h 4y ago
The big difference between a toaster and your phone is that the phone gets updates. Which, aside from fixing things, also do stuff like change UI. On Android, when Google comes up with some new inane idea for the launcher, I can at least install a different one. On iOS, when Apple does the same, I don't really have a choice other than to go along with it.

paganel 4y ago

> You say this like it is a bad thing. It has been a bad thing for me because iOS decided to get me off Whtasapp and forced me using the much worse Apple message system without me having any say in it. I have a SE and a relatively older iOS version on it, can't remember exactly which one. I don't have internet banking and don't have very much of a financial presence online, and, as such, I don't care that much about security on my phone (hence the older iOS version). Some time ago I had checked the "offload apps"in case of full disk" option or something like that, with the implicit understanding, from my part, that I could "reload" any of those apps once I would have made enough space available (usually by deleting some older videos and photos). One of those offloaded apps was Whatsapp. It turns out I cannot "reload" any of those offloaded apps if any one of them doesn't support my iOS version anymore. Whatsapp doesn't support my iOS version anymore, hence I cannot "reload" it, hence I cannot use it anymore. Trying to install the exact Whatsapp "version" that used to worked perfectly fine on my phone is, of course, impossible. This is very unsatisfactory for me. And back to the subject at hand, of course that Apple can't hold a candle when it comes to more mature messaging systems like Whatsapp (I haven't used Telegram and Signal). The "upload photos" experience in iMessage is day and night worse and less intuitive compared to Whatsapp. I also don't know if iMessage has any builtin groups and, even if it were to have, it would be of no use to me because more than half of my friends and acquaintances don't own an iPhone so they can't use iMessage.

skinnymuch 4y ago
I’ve been able to download apps that require newer OSes on iPhone. If I have downloaded it before, it lets me download the last compatible version. Is this not the case with WhatsApp or somethinh
- paganel 4y ago
  Yes, I have the “cloud”-y thingie close to the WhatsApp icon, meaning is offloaded. When clicking on the item to “load” it again it tries to do just that, only to give me a “Unable to download” message (or something similar) a few seconds later. I’ve tried searching for the app directly in the AppStore, I cannot find it anymore, presumably because of that older iOS I have running. Forgot to mention, the same happened to me with the Google Maps (?!) app also last year or so.