5 ms·

Yikes. You are right and I had not thought about tires as an obvious source of microplastics. What's the solution though?

ericd 4y ago
Probably lighter vehicles? Wear is superlinear with weight. Unfortunately, EVs aren't great on this axis.
- themitigating 4y ago
  A Tesla Model 3 is about 4200lbs. Most pickup trucks and midsized SUVs weigh more than this.
  - ericd 4y ago
    Eh that’s higher than the low end of an F-150, which isn’t something to be really proud of for a small car. The Model X is >5000 pounds. I think EVs are worth it overall, but something to keep in mind.
  - morsch 4y ago
    A Renault Twingo weighs about 2150 lbs. This is a sensible car which seats two comfortably and four in a pinch. It also gets 40-50 mpg. No, you can't transport your quad with it, and it's not very useful when moving house. It's also not the right car if you're currently raising three kids; most aren't. The average occupancy rate for cars is 1.5. Car taxation should scale quadratic with weight.
    - ericd 4y ago
      I think the issue with the nonlinear road wear taxation is that any fair system would have trucking paying basically 100% of the tax, and that would result in much higher goods transportation costs (I think it’s actually proportional to the 4th power of axle weight). Which I’m personally fine with, I think it’s bad policy to subsidize trucking over trains, but it’d be a big adjustment.
- MrRiddle 4y ago
  Let’s not forget brake dust which is a lot worse than microplastics, EVs create a ton of that. I bet all things considered, ICE Toyota Yaris is less bad for the environment than some Tesla.
  - pingou 4y ago
    Don't EV brake less because of regenerative braking?
    - formvoltron 4y ago
      Good point!
  - ericd 4y ago
    Nope, most Tesla drivers very rarely use their disc brakes, it’s almost all regen.
epistasis 4y ago
Stop driving. Drastically reduce the amount of vehicle miles travelled. Shift even more freight to train. Much stricter weight limits on vehicles, maybe? Higher quality tires that wear more slowly may also improve this.
- formvoltron 4y ago
  The rail idea is good. It's too bad rail is so expensive to make compared to roads. Imagine if all roads were instead rail lines, computer controlled. Would make self driving a lot easier to solve. No tire dust... Maybe if robots could lay the tracks down. OK this idea is out there, but it doesn't seem too crazy tbh.
  - triceratops 4y ago
    > It's too bad rail is so expensive to make compared to roads... Maybe if robots could lay the tracks down My impression was that permitting, land acquisition, and delays due to legal battles make up a ton of the cost. At least in the US.
  - cycomanic 4y ago
    > The rail idea is good. > It's too bad rail is so expensive to make compared to roads. Is that actually true? I mean, by what measure is rail more expensive? In comparison to rail road travel is massively subsidised. If we break down cost it would be interesting to see how they actually stack up against each other.
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      > I mean, by what measure is rail more expensive? Your average truck puts out 8 metric tons per axle [1], railroads have to deal with 20-25 tons per axle [2] (and records of 40 tons/axle in Australia [3]). That is an awful lot more force that needs to be distributed into the ground, particularly as trucks usually reach only 80 km/h whereas freight trains run at 120 km/h in Europe [4]. Additionally, road vehicles have way more tolerance for shoddy road conditions - small bumps and potholes won't bother them too much, even at higher speeds, whereas rail vehicles are really, really prone to (deadly) derailments when the track goes bad for whatever reasons. All of that makes constructing rail way more complex and as a result expensive. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road#Maintenance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road#Maintenance [2] https://www.forschungsinformationssystem.de/servlet/is/325055/ https://www.forschungsinformationssystem.de/servlet/is/32505... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axle_load https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axle_load [4] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCterzug#Geschwindigkeiten_und_Verkehrszeiten https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCterzug#Geschwindigkeite...
formvoltron 4y ago
I'll answer this one. Well there is a company that created an on vehicle electrostatic filter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTGCFL6fukY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTGCFL6fukY I wonder also if tires could be made to be just as durable yet biodegradable? Or could bacteria be introduced to roads that eats these particles? I suppose you don't want to make road slippery though. Yes I agree to drive less, but this really seems like a pretty big problem that needs some solving. Recent medical studies found microplastics in our bloodstream & lungs. Not good.

ericd 4y ago

Probably lighter vehicles? Wear is superlinear with weight. Unfortunately, EVs aren't great on this axis.

themitigating 4y ago
A Tesla Model 3 is about 4200lbs. Most pickup trucks and midsized SUVs weigh more than this.
- ericd 4y ago
  Eh that’s higher than the low end of an F-150, which isn’t something to be really proud of for a small car. The Model X is >5000 pounds. I think EVs are worth it overall, but something to keep in mind.
- morsch 4y ago
  A Renault Twingo weighs about 2150 lbs. This is a sensible car which seats two comfortably and four in a pinch. It also gets 40-50 mpg. No, you can't transport your quad with it, and it's not very useful when moving house. It's also not the right car if you're currently raising three kids; most aren't. The average occupancy rate for cars is 1.5. Car taxation should scale quadratic with weight.
  - ericd 4y ago
    I think the issue with the nonlinear road wear taxation is that any fair system would have trucking paying basically 100% of the tax, and that would result in much higher goods transportation costs (I think it’s actually proportional to the 4th power of axle weight). Which I’m personally fine with, I think it’s bad policy to subsidize trucking over trains, but it’d be a big adjustment.
MrRiddle 4y ago
Let’s not forget brake dust which is a lot worse than microplastics, EVs create a ton of that. I bet all things considered, ICE Toyota Yaris is less bad for the environment than some Tesla.
- pingou 4y ago
  Don't EV brake less because of regenerative braking?
  - formvoltron 4y ago
    Good point!
- ericd 4y ago
  Nope, most Tesla drivers very rarely use their disc brakes, it’s almost all regen.

epistasis 4y ago

Stop driving. Drastically reduce the amount of vehicle miles travelled. Shift even more freight to train. Much stricter weight limits on vehicles, maybe? Higher quality tires that wear more slowly may also improve this.

formvoltron 4y ago
The rail idea is good. It's too bad rail is so expensive to make compared to roads. Imagine if all roads were instead rail lines, computer controlled. Would make self driving a lot easier to solve. No tire dust... Maybe if robots could lay the tracks down. OK this idea is out there, but it doesn't seem too crazy tbh.
- triceratops 4y ago
  > It's too bad rail is so expensive to make compared to roads... Maybe if robots could lay the tracks down My impression was that permitting, land acquisition, and delays due to legal battles make up a ton of the cost. At least in the US.
- cycomanic 4y ago
  > The rail idea is good. > It's too bad rail is so expensive to make compared to roads. Is that actually true? I mean, by what measure is rail more expensive? In comparison to rail road travel is massively subsidised. If we break down cost it would be interesting to see how they actually stack up against each other.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > I mean, by what measure is rail more expensive? Your average truck puts out 8 metric tons per axle [1], railroads have to deal with 20-25 tons per axle [2] (and records of 40 tons/axle in Australia [3]). That is an awful lot more force that needs to be distributed into the ground, particularly as trucks usually reach only 80 km/h whereas freight trains run at 120 km/h in Europe [4]. Additionally, road vehicles have way more tolerance for shoddy road conditions - small bumps and potholes won't bother them too much, even at higher speeds, whereas rail vehicles are really, really prone to (deadly) derailments when the track goes bad for whatever reasons. All of that makes constructing rail way more complex and as a result expensive. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road#Maintenance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road#Maintenance [2] https://www.forschungsinformationssystem.de/servlet/is/325055/ https://www.forschungsinformationssystem.de/servlet/is/32505... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axle_load https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axle_load [4] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCterzug#Geschwindigkeiten_und_Verkehrszeiten https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCterzug#Geschwindigkeite...

formvoltron 4y ago

I'll answer this one. Well there is a company that created an on vehicle electrostatic filter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTGCFL6fukY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTGCFL6fukY I wonder also if tires could be made to be just as durable yet biodegradable? Or could bacteria be introduced to roads that eats these particles? I suppose you don't want to make road slippery though. Yes I agree to drive less, but this really seems like a pretty big problem that needs some solving. Recent medical studies found microplastics in our bloodstream & lungs. Not good.