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Developer experience writing React is much nicer than using other markup languages. That's why I use it at least, the fact that it spits out a fully JS-free web

Developer experience writing React is much nicer than using other markup languages. That's why I use it at least, the fact that it spits out a fully JS-free website at the end is the icing on the top.

tshaddox 4y ago
Nothing about the developer experience of React seems better than any old HTML template language (and hardly better even than plain HTML), if you're not doing any interactivity and are just going to render once and spit out the HTML.
- cercatrova 4y ago
  Have you used React before? It's miles above HTML templating. I honestly don't use frameworks that have regular templating anymore, like Vue or Svelte.
  - acdha 4y ago
    Yes. JSX is nice for escaping by default but encourages total spaghetti coding hiding app logic in the templates and various footguns like non-standard attributes className and breaking id. Running it on the server side mitigates the React performance hit somewhat but the selling point is interactivity.
  - alanwreath 4y ago
    What are you referring to? I am unaware of what “regular” templating you’re referring to or what react is achieving that is not available or cumbersome under react or svelte. I mean if JSX is considered as something particularly powerful (not saying it does) doesn’t Vue actually do that https://vuejs.org/guide/extras/render-function.html https://vuejs.org/guide/extras/render-function.html ?
    - zdragnar 4y ago
      Think of JSX as a macro, rather than "regular" templating, which is typically string substitution. For static sites, this means that you get functions and objects the entire way through the render pipeline right up until there is a full tree built and the final output is rendered. You still get all the separation powers of contexts, the component based reusability, etc, and it is all regular JavaScript / typescript except for the JSX macro itself and React's APIs (which are just JavaScript). Conversely, with templating engines like handlebars / erb / et al you need to learn the specific DSL of the template engine- custom loops and controls, imports for partials, and your custom helpers are limited to what they can do. Even Vue's render function has special markup for control (v-if, v-else).
      - ricardobeat 4y ago
        Some day we have to stop repeating this nonsense. JSX requires much more learning than simple templating, there is no inherent benefit. Even a simple conditional is more complex than your average template.
        cercatrova 4y ago
        The thing is, if you know JS, then a conditional is JSX is the same as in JS. Contrast that with every new templating language under the sun which might have its own way of doing conditionals and loops and control flow. That to me is much more annoying.
        9dev 4y ago
        But you’re aware JSX is just plain old PHP files, code intermingled with HTML? It’s the exact same thing, and it breeds the exact same bad behaviour.
        zdragnar 4y ago
        Separation of concerns is different from separation of languages. PHP intermingled with HTML was bad because developers would do things like run database queries and other operations that caused side effects directly in the markup. Every templating system still has logic in it, and almost every templating system as a way to create custom helpers which are written in the host language. Since API calls and calls to react's `setState` are asynchronous, and the rendering pipeline is synchronous, it is still obvious that you can't put code that makes an AJAX call in your html markup.
  - tshaddox 4y ago
    I have used React. I'm a huge fan and I also prefer it over its most common "competitors" like Vue and Svelte. But React (like Vue and Svelte) are fundamentally about interactivity. If I had a project where I knew for sure that I only wanted to generate HTML sans JS on the server (or with a static build process) I wouldn't even consider using React. It barely even makes sense. Your "React components" would just be JavaScript functions that take props and return some JSX. None of the interesting React features and hooks would even make sense, other than maybe context (and presumably most or all popular static HTML templating tools have comparable features).
    - dsego 4y ago
      Which looks nicer? Eta vs JSX <%~ includeFile('./navbar', { pages: [ 'home', 'about', 'users' ] }) %> <navbar pages={['home', 'about', 'users']} /> > would just be JavaScript functions that take props and return some JSX They can also be async functions that process data independently. Whereas templates are commonly just passed in data from the controller. https://github.com/dsego/ssr-playground/#jsx-partials https://github.com/dsego/ssr-playground/#jsx-partials
    - munbun 4y ago
      JSX is much easier to maintain than pretty much every other templating language. If you are building a growing design system with any degree of complexity, React is one of the best tools available.
- nsonha 4y ago
  > Nothing about the developer experience of React seems better than any old HTML template language Is that a joke? You get autocomplete from typescript and props to be fully typed functions, or any kind of object for that matter. That compares to autocomplete that's just some ad-hoc, bug ridden tools that locks you into some IDE or editor, and who cares because all the attributes have the same type (string) anyway.
cutler 4y ago
You have to be joking, surely? React/Vue as a mere static template languages? Dedicated static site frameworks such as Jekyll and Middleman are a much better experience. My favourite is still Perl's Template::Toolkit.
- cercatrova 4y ago
  TypeScript, that's the differentiator. Having fully typed variables in the templates cannot be replicated in templating languages (well technically they might be able to but that's not as ergonomic as fact).
  - cutler 4y ago
    Talk about sledgehammer to crack a nut - honestly, why does anyone need type safety in a simple templating operation? Dynamic languages have their uses, you know. Type safety is a tool, not an ideology.
    - cercatrova 4y ago
      I basically never use dynamic languages anymore. If there aren't algebraic data types in a language I simply don't use it. Sometimes people think I'm exaggerating but it's truly great to use a language with ADTs that you get spoiled.
      - cutler 4y ago
        So what do you use for shell scripting?
        cercatrova 4y ago
        I like using Nim or Rust, or TypeScript, depends on the script. If it's just a few lines, sure I'll write it in bash, but if it gets a little larger, I convert it into a real programming language.
bryanrasmussen 4y ago
and what's your experience writing other markup languages that you base this statement on? I can definitely agree it is nicer for a data intensive sites, and with effort can be made somewhat equivalent in most document heavy sites, but there are definitely some scenarios I've encountered where the match of technology to use case was disastrously not in React's favor. Specifically I can think of parts of the websites' functionality is editing highly technical structured data documents by highly trained domain experts. I mean basically where years of developer productivity was thrown down a React hole when it could have been months in SGML / XML based tooling for what was required. I can say that because I have built big solutions in both stacks, though.
- cercatrova 4y ago
  I've used many, Handlebars, Pug, Vue's, Svelte's, Zola's, many. They're all somewhat similar in that they try to recreate loops and conditionals, all without strong type support unlike in JSX. I've never used SGML though, another commenter told me that it is more powerful.

tshaddox 4y ago

Nothing about the developer experience of React seems better than any old HTML template language (and hardly better even than plain HTML), if you're not doing any interactivity and are just going to render once and spit out the HTML.

cercatrova 4y ago
Have you used React before? It's miles above HTML templating. I honestly don't use frameworks that have regular templating anymore, like Vue or Svelte.
- acdha 4y ago
  Yes. JSX is nice for escaping by default but encourages total spaghetti coding hiding app logic in the templates and various footguns like non-standard attributes className and breaking id. Running it on the server side mitigates the React performance hit somewhat but the selling point is interactivity.
- alanwreath 4y ago
  What are you referring to? I am unaware of what “regular” templating you’re referring to or what react is achieving that is not available or cumbersome under react or svelte. I mean if JSX is considered as something particularly powerful (not saying it does) doesn’t Vue actually do that https://vuejs.org/guide/extras/render-function.html https://vuejs.org/guide/extras/render-function.html ?
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    Think of JSX as a macro, rather than "regular" templating, which is typically string substitution. For static sites, this means that you get functions and objects the entire way through the render pipeline right up until there is a full tree built and the final output is rendered. You still get all the separation powers of contexts, the component based reusability, etc, and it is all regular JavaScript / typescript except for the JSX macro itself and React's APIs (which are just JavaScript). Conversely, with templating engines like handlebars / erb / et al you need to learn the specific DSL of the template engine- custom loops and controls, imports for partials, and your custom helpers are limited to what they can do. Even Vue's render function has special markup for control (v-if, v-else).
    - ricardobeat 4y ago
      Some day we have to stop repeating this nonsense. JSX requires much more learning than simple templating, there is no inherent benefit. Even a simple conditional is more complex than your average template.
      - cercatrova 4y ago
        The thing is, if you know JS, then a conditional is JSX is the same as in JS. Contrast that with every new templating language under the sun which might have its own way of doing conditionals and loops and control flow. That to me is much more annoying.
        9dev 4y ago
        But you’re aware JSX is just plain old PHP files, code intermingled with HTML? It’s the exact same thing, and it breeds the exact same bad behaviour.
        zdragnar 4y ago
        Separation of concerns is different from separation of languages. PHP intermingled with HTML was bad because developers would do things like run database queries and other operations that caused side effects directly in the markup. Every templating system still has logic in it, and almost every templating system as a way to create custom helpers which are written in the host language. Since API calls and calls to react's `setState` are asynchronous, and the rendering pipeline is synchronous, it is still obvious that you can't put code that makes an AJAX call in your html markup.
- tshaddox 4y ago
  I have used React. I'm a huge fan and I also prefer it over its most common "competitors" like Vue and Svelte. But React (like Vue and Svelte) are fundamentally about interactivity. If I had a project where I knew for sure that I only wanted to generate HTML sans JS on the server (or with a static build process) I wouldn't even consider using React. It barely even makes sense. Your "React components" would just be JavaScript functions that take props and return some JSX. None of the interesting React features and hooks would even make sense, other than maybe context (and presumably most or all popular static HTML templating tools have comparable features).
  - dsego 4y ago
    Which looks nicer? Eta vs JSX <%~ includeFile('./navbar', { pages: [ 'home', 'about', 'users' ] }) %> <navbar pages={['home', 'about', 'users']} /> > would just be JavaScript functions that take props and return some JSX They can also be async functions that process data independently. Whereas templates are commonly just passed in data from the controller. https://github.com/dsego/ssr-playground/#jsx-partials https://github.com/dsego/ssr-playground/#jsx-partials
  - munbun 4y ago
    JSX is much easier to maintain than pretty much every other templating language. If you are building a growing design system with any degree of complexity, React is one of the best tools available.
nsonha 4y ago
> Nothing about the developer experience of React seems better than any old HTML template language Is that a joke? You get autocomplete from typescript and props to be fully typed functions, or any kind of object for that matter. That compares to autocomplete that's just some ad-hoc, bug ridden tools that locks you into some IDE or editor, and who cares because all the attributes have the same type (string) anyway.

cutler 4y ago

You have to be joking, surely? React/Vue as a mere static template languages? Dedicated static site frameworks such as Jekyll and Middleman are a much better experience. My favourite is still Perl's Template::Toolkit.

cercatrova 4y ago
TypeScript, that's the differentiator. Having fully typed variables in the templates cannot be replicated in templating languages (well technically they might be able to but that's not as ergonomic as fact).
- cutler 4y ago
  Talk about sledgehammer to crack a nut - honestly, why does anyone need type safety in a simple templating operation? Dynamic languages have their uses, you know. Type safety is a tool, not an ideology.
  - cercatrova 4y ago
    I basically never use dynamic languages anymore. If there aren't algebraic data types in a language I simply don't use it. Sometimes people think I'm exaggerating but it's truly great to use a language with ADTs that you get spoiled.
    - cutler 4y ago
      So what do you use for shell scripting?
      - cercatrova 4y ago
        I like using Nim or Rust, or TypeScript, depends on the script. If it's just a few lines, sure I'll write it in bash, but if it gets a little larger, I convert it into a real programming language.

bryanrasmussen 4y ago

and what's your experience writing other markup languages that you base this statement on? I can definitely agree it is nicer for a data intensive sites, and with effort can be made somewhat equivalent in most document heavy sites, but there are definitely some scenarios I've encountered where the match of technology to use case was disastrously not in React's favor. Specifically I can think of parts of the websites' functionality is editing highly technical structured data documents by highly trained domain experts. I mean basically where years of developer productivity was thrown down a React hole when it could have been months in SGML / XML based tooling for what was required. I can say that because I have built big solutions in both stacks, though.

cercatrova 4y ago
I've used many, Handlebars, Pug, Vue's, Svelte's, Zola's, many. They're all somewhat similar in that they try to recreate loops and conditionals, all without strong type support unlike in JSX. I've never used SGML though, another commenter told me that it is more powerful.