8 ms·

Number one reason: You're not offering me enough good reasons to leave my current job. I don't think HR and software recruiting has really caught up to the rea

Number one reason: You're not offering me enough good reasons to leave my current job. I don't think HR and software recruiting has really caught up to the reality that many developers by their mid-30's are sitting on a million+ in assets and good ones can rake in 200K+ easy. Further we usually find equilibrium with our roles wherever we are even if we have gripes with how things are because most devs are pragmatic people that realize everything is awful everywhere and perfection is unattainable. Offer me more money, more PTO (fuck your unlimited time off garbage), lunch and club budgets etc and I'll be more interested. Four day work week? Yea, that will get my attention. Oh and there's the other problem that your company is probably not competitive with Microsoft + FAANG and the handful of unicorns in the compensation arena. Either you're private and have no stock to offer, or your stock is flat-lined, or you don't hand enough of it out. Nor is your product interesting enough to work on. Changing jobs is a pain in the ass. Most of us have stable jobs, good report with our coworkers and managers, deliver stuff on time, and get paid well... You're going to have to compensate me better than +10% on whatever I am currently making to get me to switch jobs.

gsibble 4y ago
By my mid-30s and having started programming at 9 and professionally at 14, 200k is chump change for a salary. That's what they really haven't caught up to.
- radicaldreamer 4y ago
  This is only true for US salaries (and sometimes specifically within Bay Area/Seattle/New York markets)... pretty much everywhere else, salaries are a lot lower. L7 salaries are 300k base and around 400k equity in the US, so hiring experienced/accomplished developers is intensely difficult for companies outside of the top tier with high margins or startups with potential exits.
  - gsibble 4y ago
    Definitely only true for US and certain geographical areas, including the one I'm in. All I'm really saying is top-tier, experienced talent in top paying geographies make significantly more than $200k.
- Victerius 4y ago
  200k is not chump change for every other profession. Get off your high horse. You're not special because you know software.
  - glouwbug 4y ago
    Money really doesn't much once you've hit financial independence. I can live out the rest of my days with $1m invested. $200K-$500k annual salary, hell, even $100k, is enough at that point.
    - nawgz 4y ago
      “I can live out the rest of my days with ... $200K-$500k annual salary” Sorry, but this isn’t “living out the rest of my days with” money, this is a top 5-1% pay range you’ve just suggested. I don’t necessarily disagree with your point but anyone who needs a $500K salary clearly is not financially independent
      - gsibble 4y ago
        In the bay area, a $500k annual salary is really not that much in the grand scheme of thngs.
        nawgz 4y ago
        It's literally an elite salary. It makes no sense to imply you're living a frugal, simple life if you need an elite salary to do it.
        gsibble 4y ago
        I wasn't the one who said I was living a frugal life.
        nawgz 4y ago
        You hopped in to defend the point, but go ahead and take your exit then
- claudiulodro 4y ago
  I dunno, I think this might be a bias of your social circle. Looking at the latest levels.fyi submissions[1], the majority are for <$200k/yr. [1] https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&showAll=true https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&s...
kube-system 4y ago
Don't write off a company just because they have an unlimited PTO policy. Check out the culture first, some actually respect it. Especially in smaller companies, it's sometimes just easier to judge people based on their output rather than the number of days their butt is behind a keyboard.
- karamanolev 4y ago
  > some actually respect it I'm yet to see one or hear from a friend who works in one. I admit there might exist one somewhere, but by and large, they don't. Unlimited PTO = culture of overworking, at least for me. And small companies with unlimited PTO, 3-5 engineer teams (and some other staff, obviously) seem to be the worst offenders. The bigger the company, the higher the chance unlimited PTO might actually work. That being said, I'd love if someone can teach me how to tell them apart.
  - gsibble 4y ago
    Yeah, I do have to say every company I've worked for with "unlimited PTO" really means "no PTO and if you take any you will be shamed for it and possibly fired."
  - pixelp33pr 4y ago
    This comment is intesting. I've experienced unlimited PTO in a couple of big companies and it was amazing. There was never any push back on taking 'reasonable' time off (1-2 weeks at a time) and being able to take off without counting hours was fantastic
  - aorloff 4y ago
    The only place I've heard of that went to unlimited that sounded serious about it was a non-profit (non-tech) where the execs said: we going to unlimited PTO, but we are going to enforce PTO minimums if you don't take PTO (you will be taking time off each year, either you will schedule it or the company will). They combined the move with creating some company-wide long weekends that augment already long weekends (eg. add a Friday or Tuesday to the July 4th holiday to make it a 4-day closure).
lifeisstillgood 4y ago
>>> many developers by their mid-30's are sitting on a million+ in assets and good ones can rake in 200K+ easy. What !!! Edit: I did return to tone down my reaction but I would be interested in any (evidence based) research on the pay scales in and out of SV. I understand it is only the very top tech (FAANG) that pay so highly and mostly though share options. It's not like that in Europe I am afraid. But even so, if that's your position by 35, well done you.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  GP definitely lives in a SV/US bubble. Here in Europe I know devs in high CoL areas having less than a thousand Euros left at the end of the month. Having millions in assets is fantasy for us unless you won some crypto/stock gambles.
  - blibble 4y ago
    perfectly doable in London
    - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      How exactly?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - blibble 4y ago
        works for a company that pays its engineers reasonably well? $200k (TC) is not that high in London for an engineer with 10 years experience
        lifeisstillgood 4y ago
        So that's 160k pa total. I'm in London myself I would be surprised to see someone whose job is coding getting that. There may be crypto paying silly amounts or lucky start ups. Either that or I need to brush up my CV
pjmlp 4y ago
Fully agree, nowadays I just don't bother replying any longer, if they aren't at very least at the same level as what I am having salary + benefits. Also if they are calling themselves modern and don't offer 100% home office, scrap that. Same applies if there is any mention of code golf, or me being great at things that aren't even part of my CV. Naturally when unemployed, one doesn't get to be as picky, but thankfully that hasn't been the case.
flashgordon 4y ago
Umm + 100 to this. It surprises me how much recruiters (from all size companies) want you to leave your current role for a role that is worse in pay or growth opportunities or wlb or perks (usually all of the above) for the chance to "make future impact". What does impact even mean and why I care about it if I am not making more money or learning more or being challenged or growing or leveled up? I gotta really learn how to be shameless from these recruiters!!!

gsibble 4y ago

By my mid-30s and having started programming at 9 and professionally at 14, 200k is chump change for a salary. That's what they really haven't caught up to.

radicaldreamer 4y ago
This is only true for US salaries (and sometimes specifically within Bay Area/Seattle/New York markets)... pretty much everywhere else, salaries are a lot lower. L7 salaries are 300k base and around 400k equity in the US, so hiring experienced/accomplished developers is intensely difficult for companies outside of the top tier with high margins or startups with potential exits.
- gsibble 4y ago
  Definitely only true for US and certain geographical areas, including the one I'm in. All I'm really saying is top-tier, experienced talent in top paying geographies make significantly more than $200k.
Victerius 4y ago
200k is not chump change for every other profession. Get off your high horse. You're not special because you know software.
- glouwbug 4y ago
  Money really doesn't much once you've hit financial independence. I can live out the rest of my days with $1m invested. $200K-$500k annual salary, hell, even $100k, is enough at that point.
  - nawgz 4y ago
    “I can live out the rest of my days with ... $200K-$500k annual salary” Sorry, but this isn’t “living out the rest of my days with” money, this is a top 5-1% pay range you’ve just suggested. I don’t necessarily disagree with your point but anyone who needs a $500K salary clearly is not financially independent
    - gsibble 4y ago
      In the bay area, a $500k annual salary is really not that much in the grand scheme of thngs.
      - nawgz 4y ago
        It's literally an elite salary. It makes no sense to imply you're living a frugal, simple life if you need an elite salary to do it.
        gsibble 4y ago
        I wasn't the one who said I was living a frugal life.
        nawgz 4y ago
        You hopped in to defend the point, but go ahead and take your exit then
claudiulodro 4y ago
I dunno, I think this might be a bias of your social circle. Looking at the latest levels.fyi submissions[1], the majority are for <$200k/yr. [1] https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&showAll=true https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html?track=Software%20Engineer&s...

kube-system 4y ago

Don't write off a company just because they have an unlimited PTO policy. Check out the culture first, some actually respect it. Especially in smaller companies, it's sometimes just easier to judge people based on their output rather than the number of days their butt is behind a keyboard.

karamanolev 4y ago
> some actually respect it I'm yet to see one or hear from a friend who works in one. I admit there might exist one somewhere, but by and large, they don't. Unlimited PTO = culture of overworking, at least for me. And small companies with unlimited PTO, 3-5 engineer teams (and some other staff, obviously) seem to be the worst offenders. The bigger the company, the higher the chance unlimited PTO might actually work. That being said, I'd love if someone can teach me how to tell them apart.
- gsibble 4y ago
  Yeah, I do have to say every company I've worked for with "unlimited PTO" really means "no PTO and if you take any you will be shamed for it and possibly fired."
- pixelp33pr 4y ago
  This comment is intesting. I've experienced unlimited PTO in a couple of big companies and it was amazing. There was never any push back on taking 'reasonable' time off (1-2 weeks at a time) and being able to take off without counting hours was fantastic
- aorloff 4y ago
  The only place I've heard of that went to unlimited that sounded serious about it was a non-profit (non-tech) where the execs said: we going to unlimited PTO, but we are going to enforce PTO minimums if you don't take PTO (you will be taking time off each year, either you will schedule it or the company will). They combined the move with creating some company-wide long weekends that augment already long weekends (eg. add a Friday or Tuesday to the July 4th holiday to make it a 4-day closure).

lifeisstillgood 4y ago

>>> many developers by their mid-30's are sitting on a million+ in assets and good ones can rake in 200K+ easy. What !!! Edit: I did return to tone down my reaction but I would be interested in any (evidence based) research on the pay scales in and out of SV. I understand it is only the very top tech (FAANG) that pay so highly and mostly though share options. It's not like that in Europe I am afraid. But even so, if that's your position by 35, well done you.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
GP definitely lives in a SV/US bubble. Here in Europe I know devs in high CoL areas having less than a thousand Euros left at the end of the month. Having millions in assets is fantasy for us unless you won some crypto/stock gambles.
- blibble 4y ago
  perfectly doable in London
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    How exactly?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - blibble 4y ago
      works for a company that pays its engineers reasonably well? $200k (TC) is not that high in London for an engineer with 10 years experience
      - lifeisstillgood 4y ago
        So that's 160k pa total. I'm in London myself I would be surprised to see someone whose job is coding getting that. There may be crypto paying silly amounts or lucky start ups. Either that or I need to brush up my CV

pjmlp 4y ago

Fully agree, nowadays I just don't bother replying any longer, if they aren't at very least at the same level as what I am having salary + benefits. Also if they are calling themselves modern and don't offer 100% home office, scrap that. Same applies if there is any mention of code golf, or me being great at things that aren't even part of my CV. Naturally when unemployed, one doesn't get to be as picky, but thankfully that hasn't been the case.

flashgordon 4y ago

Umm + 100 to this. It surprises me how much recruiters (from all size companies) want you to leave your current role for a role that is worse in pay or growth opportunities or wlb or perks (usually all of the above) for the chance to "make future impact". What does impact even mean and why I care about it if I am not making more money or learning more or being challenged or growing or leveled up? I gotta really learn how to be shameless from these recruiters!!!