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“You’d like to think that since these institutions are getting the best students, the students who go there would have the best chances to succeed,” he says. “B

by bedris 15y ago

“You’d like to think that since these institutions are getting the best students, the students who go there would have the best chances to succeed,” he says. “But if you take two students who have the same high school grade-point average and SAT scores, and you put one in a highly selective school like Berkeley and the other in a school with lower average scores like Cal State, that Berkeley student is at least 13 percent less likely than the one at Cal State to finish a STEM degree.” This is interesting. Could it be that at more selective schools, when students encounter difficulty in STEM courses, they are less hesitant to switch to an easier major because they figure that their degree will still have value due to the name recognition of their university, while their counterparts at less selective schools don't have that luxury? That's one hypothesis...

ak217 15y ago
No, it's just that Berkeley STEM courses are harder.
- ricefield 15y ago
  Not just material-wise, but also in terms of competitiveness
  - grammr 15y ago
    This is a valid point. The EECS department at Berkeley essentially sets the distribution of letter grades that will be assigned at the end of each course[0], so there will always be many damned smart students who end up getting really low (or failing) grades because of their performance relative to their peers. I majored in CS at Berkeley, and there were only one or two professors that I can recall who strayed even slightly from these departmental guidelines. For me, the harsh curves essentially ruined what would have been an amazing educational experience. It was basically a perpetual preparation for the next exam, because you were always competing for your spot on the grade scale. This is a very real deterrent for not only students who need a decent GPA (e.g. for grad school), but also for those who want to actually enjoy their time at university. [0] http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policies/ugrad.grading.shtml http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policies/ugrad.grading.shtml
    - scott_s 15y ago
      I dunno, this distribution seems reasonable to me: 17% A's, 50% B's, 20% C's, 10% D's, and 3% F's Are you saying that the caliber of student in the EECS department of Berkeley is so high that even the bottom 13% of the class would have gotten C's or B's at another school?
      - unabridged 15y ago
        the people that just missed the cutoff for those spots are probably top of their class at whatever regional university they ended up going to. also i'm sure there is some of that percentage that are capable but fucking off and not doing homework because they are 18 and just moved out of their parents house.
        scott_s 15y ago
        the people that just missed the cutoff for those spots are probably top of their class at whatever regional university they ended up going to. Entirely possible, but I think that says more about the capricious nature of admissions at elite colleges.
      - grammr 15y ago
        > Are you saying that the caliber of student in the EECS department of Berkeley is so high that even the bottom 13% of the class would have gotten C's or B's at another school? Certainly not any other school in general, but at your average university, probably yes. That's not so hard to believe given the competitiveness of Cal's engineering programs.
        scott_s 15y ago
        I find it hard to believe. I've encountered - both as a student and as a teacher - too many bright, seemingly qualified students who just don't work hard enough and get their work done to accept that claim.
        15y ago
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- wfo 15y ago
  In my experience it's more that more prestigious schools have a very talented student body, who are not at all used to failure. If something gets hard for the first time in their life, more of them are likely to say 'well that's not my thing' and switch, rather than say 'I guess I'm not a genius I'll have to work hard'. Calc III is Calc III -- you can look up the video lectures at MIT and see for yourself. The books, topics, pace, are mostly pretty standard at most universities, with some exceptions. Also bigger, more prestigious universities seem to care less about their students and more about their research: see: TAs who are incapable of teaching, can't speak English, etc. When you're taking a difficult subject and lecture is a waste of time because your teacher can't communicate it's no surprise people drop out. They didn't sign up to self-study by themselves for a semester and take a final.
jj_aa 15y ago
Yes, that figured into my decision to leave a top 5 CS program. The best students were so far ahead that I thought, "Wow, I obviously don't know the first thing about programming- I guess I'm just a lowly diletante." My other best subject was English, so I figured I might as well do that, get the degree, and I'd still be able to teach myself what I needed to know about CS. It was all going so well until all the job postings started requiring a CS degree...

by bedris 15y ago

ak217 15y ago

No, it's just that Berkeley STEM courses are harder.

ricefield 15y ago
Not just material-wise, but also in terms of competitiveness
- grammr 15y ago
  This is a valid point. The EECS department at Berkeley essentially sets the distribution of letter grades that will be assigned at the end of each course[0], so there will always be many damned smart students who end up getting really low (or failing) grades because of their performance relative to their peers. I majored in CS at Berkeley, and there were only one or two professors that I can recall who strayed even slightly from these departmental guidelines. For me, the harsh curves essentially ruined what would have been an amazing educational experience. It was basically a perpetual preparation for the next exam, because you were always competing for your spot on the grade scale. This is a very real deterrent for not only students who need a decent GPA (e.g. for grad school), but also for those who want to actually enjoy their time at university. [0] http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policies/ugrad.grading.shtml http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Policies/ugrad.grading.shtml
  - scott_s 15y ago
    I dunno, this distribution seems reasonable to me: 17% A's, 50% B's, 20% C's, 10% D's, and 3% F's Are you saying that the caliber of student in the EECS department of Berkeley is so high that even the bottom 13% of the class would have gotten C's or B's at another school?
    - unabridged 15y ago
      the people that just missed the cutoff for those spots are probably top of their class at whatever regional university they ended up going to. also i'm sure there is some of that percentage that are capable but fucking off and not doing homework because they are 18 and just moved out of their parents house.
      - scott_s 15y ago
        the people that just missed the cutoff for those spots are probably top of their class at whatever regional university they ended up going to. Entirely possible, but I think that says more about the capricious nature of admissions at elite colleges.
    - grammr 15y ago
      > Are you saying that the caliber of student in the EECS department of Berkeley is so high that even the bottom 13% of the class would have gotten C's or B's at another school? Certainly not any other school in general, but at your average university, probably yes. That's not so hard to believe given the competitiveness of Cal's engineering programs.
      - scott_s 15y ago
        I find it hard to believe. I've encountered - both as a student and as a teacher - too many bright, seemingly qualified students who just don't work hard enough and get their work done to accept that claim.
        15y ago
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
wfo 15y ago
In my experience it's more that more prestigious schools have a very talented student body, who are not at all used to failure. If something gets hard for the first time in their life, more of them are likely to say 'well that's not my thing' and switch, rather than say 'I guess I'm not a genius I'll have to work hard'. Calc III is Calc III -- you can look up the video lectures at MIT and see for yourself. The books, topics, pace, are mostly pretty standard at most universities, with some exceptions. Also bigger, more prestigious universities seem to care less about their students and more about their research: see: TAs who are incapable of teaching, can't speak English, etc. When you're taking a difficult subject and lecture is a waste of time because your teacher can't communicate it's no surprise people drop out. They didn't sign up to self-study by themselves for a semester and take a final.

jj_aa 15y ago

Yes, that figured into my decision to leave a top 5 CS program. The best students were so far ahead that I thought, "Wow, I obviously don't know the first thing about programming- I guess I'm just a lowly diletante." My other best subject was English, so I figured I might as well do that, get the degree, and I'd still be able to teach myself what I needed to know about CS. It was all going so well until all the job postings started requiring a CS degree...