8 ms·

From [1]: "“I don’t think I’ve ever had a case like this,” he said Friday. “Usually, abortions are performed in hospitals, and doctors are involved, and it’s no

From [1]: "“I don’t think I’ve ever had a case like this,” he said Friday. “Usually, abortions are performed in hospitals, and doctors are involved, and it’s not the type of stuff that occurred in this case.”"

0xbadcafebee 4y ago
Huh. Who'd have thought that making abortions illegal would force people to have dangerous illicit abortions and have to hide the evidence.
- cato_the_elder 4y ago
  Sure, people respond to incentives. But this one is particularly cruel. Also, despite all those bogus studies (which, for example, don't correct for how much rule of law is upheld when comparing countries), it will reduce the total number of late-stage abortions significantly. That's a win in my books.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ryneandal 4y ago
    > despite all those bogus studies Citation required. Numerous legitimate studies show that limited/no access to abortions leads to more at-home/back-alley abortions[1,2]. They also show that abortion bans will lead to higher maternal mortality rate [3]. But go off and pat yourself on the back for fetuses having more value than the incubation receptacle they're within. 1: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(11)61786-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... 2:https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(20)30315-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-1... 3: https://www.colorado.edu/today/2022/06/30/abortion-bans-increase-maternal-mortality-even-more-study-shows https://www.colorado.edu/today/2022/06/30/abortion-bans-incr...
    - nathanaldensr 4y ago
      > Numerous legitimate studies show that limited/no access to abortions leads to more at-home/back-alley abortions[1,2]. Abortions don't just spontaneously happen. Your style of carefully-worded rhetoric is intentional in that it gives people an impression like they just do. They don't; the mother makes knowing decisions to terminate the life of her child. Now, several states greatly restrict these intentional, knowing, conscious decisions.
      - ryneandal 4y ago
        That's quite the leap. No one is arguing that elective abortions occur spontaneously (because those are miscarriages [1]), hence the moniker pro-CHOICE. And considering pregnancy is often incredibly dangerous[2], not always a consciously made decision[3], and in many cases will bear no fruit (pun intended)[4], there is ample reason to allow someone to make a decision about their pregnancy. 1: https://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/gynecology-and-obstetrics/abnormalities-of-pregnancy/spontaneous-abortion https://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/gynecology-and-obs... 2: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/maternal-mortality/2020/maternal-mortality-rates-2020.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/maternal-mortality/2020... 3: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/sexualviolence/understanding-RRP-inUS.html https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/sexualviolence/unders... 4: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/pregnancy-loss-miscarriage/symptoms-causes/syc-20354298#:~:text=About%2010%20to%2020%20percent%20of%20known%20pregnancies%20end%20in%20miscarriage.%20But%20the%20actual%20number%20is%20likely%20higher%20because%20many%20miscarriages%20occur%20very%20early%20in%20pregnancy%20%E2%80%94%20before%20you%20might%20even%20know%20about%20a%20pregnancy https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/pregnancy-los....
    - cato_the_elder 4y ago
      I looked at the abstracts of the references you provided, and the first two seem to share the general biases of these kind of studies. The first Lancet one has this as a finding: > The abortion rate was lower in subregions where more women live under liberal abortion laws (p<0·05) They don't seem to have corrected for other factors like rule of law, income, and level of economic development. The second Lancet one also suffers from the same issue (though at least acknowledge the rule if income), and the authors reveal their biases very soon: > We developed a new statistical model that jointly estimated unintended pregnancy and abortion that aimed to better inform efforts towards global equity in sexual and reproductive health and rights. The last one's [1] conclusions seem like they could be broadly correct. If no abortion is allowed at all, you'd expect more maternal deaths. However, the actual amount is disputable as this is based on modelling not concrete data. Additionally, they seem to be assuming a total ban on abortion, which doesn't seem realistic to me. > But go off and pat yourself on the back for fetuses having more value than the incubation receptacle they're within. Finally, we need to avoid personal attacks if we are going to have a fruitful discussion. [1]: https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/7g29k https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/7g29k
  - mcguire 4y ago
    "“Late term” abortion typically refers to abortions obtained at or after 21 weeks, however it is not an accepted medical term, nor is there a consensus around to which gestational ages it refers. Members of the medical community have criticized the term “late-term” abortion, as it implies abortions are taking place after a pregnancy has reached “term” (37 weeks) or “late term” (>41 weeks) which is false. In fact, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) has written that “late-term abortion” has no medical meaning and should not be used in clinical or legal settings." "Abortions at or after 21 weeks are uncommon, and represent 1% of all abortions in the US. ... Reasons individuals seek abortions later in pregnancy include medical concerns such as fetal anomalies or maternal life endangerment, as well as barriers to care that cause delays in obtaining an abortion." (https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/fact-sheet/abortions-later-in-pregnancy/ https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/fact-sheet/abortion...)
- filoleg 4y ago
  As of today, abortions in Nebraska are still legal up to the 22nd week, with the exception of two small towns in the state. It was expanded from up to the 20th week in 2019.
  - 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
    40% of Nebraska women from the ages 15-44 live in a county that has no abortion provider. There are insurance restrictions in Nebraska preventing assistance in paying for an abortion. Parental consent is required to get an abortion. There's a mandatory 24 hour waiting period where you must receive state-mandated abortion counseling. Telemedicine for abortion is banned. But, yeah, actually, this is way more access than most women in this country have to an abortion. Kudos, Nebraska. However, in February the state failed to pass a trigger law that would've banned all abortions when Roe v. Wade was overturned. Nebraska legislators have indicated they may call a special session to try again to pass the bill.
    - throwayyy479087 4y ago
      As someone from the Midwest, not having access to medical services nearby is the norm. Nebraska is not SF and there does not exist an expectation of immediate convenience. You are used to driving >3 hours for basically any sort of serious medical care, and generally you like it that way because it's quiet and close knit.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
        Geography is not the reason why it's been nearly impossible to get an abortion in conservative states for 50 years. Lack of access is a huge barrier to women who need abortions, which largely are the vulnerable, young, poor, people of color, and those with health complications.
        4y ago
saghm 4y ago
Well, yeah, that's probably because for nearly 50 years the government ostensibly recognized the right to have an abortion. Of course some people are going to be avoiding the system after recent events, and people who are afraid to seek help from others are more likely to resort to extreme measures out of desperation. I think they should adjust their expectations if they think this was a random outlier...
- nathanaldensr 4y ago
  This event occurred before Roe v. Wade was overturned, and it still being investigated.

0xbadcafebee 4y ago

Huh. Who'd have thought that making abortions illegal would force people to have dangerous illicit abortions and have to hide the evidence.

cato_the_elder 4y ago
Sure, people respond to incentives. But this one is particularly cruel. Also, despite all those bogus studies (which, for example, don't correct for how much rule of law is upheld when comparing countries), it will reduce the total number of late-stage abortions significantly. That's a win in my books.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ryneandal 4y ago
  > despite all those bogus studies Citation required. Numerous legitimate studies show that limited/no access to abortions leads to more at-home/back-alley abortions[1,2]. They also show that abortion bans will lead to higher maternal mortality rate [3]. But go off and pat yourself on the back for fetuses having more value than the incubation receptacle they're within. 1: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(11)61786-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... 2:https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(20)30315-6/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-1... 3: https://www.colorado.edu/today/2022/06/30/abortion-bans-increase-maternal-mortality-even-more-study-shows https://www.colorado.edu/today/2022/06/30/abortion-bans-incr...
  - nathanaldensr 4y ago
    > Numerous legitimate studies show that limited/no access to abortions leads to more at-home/back-alley abortions[1,2]. Abortions don't just spontaneously happen. Your style of carefully-worded rhetoric is intentional in that it gives people an impression like they just do. They don't; the mother makes knowing decisions to terminate the life of her child. Now, several states greatly restrict these intentional, knowing, conscious decisions.
    - ryneandal 4y ago
      That's quite the leap. No one is arguing that elective abortions occur spontaneously (because those are miscarriages [1]), hence the moniker pro-CHOICE. And considering pregnancy is often incredibly dangerous[2], not always a consciously made decision[3], and in many cases will bear no fruit (pun intended)[4], there is ample reason to allow someone to make a decision about their pregnancy. 1: https://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/gynecology-and-obstetrics/abnormalities-of-pregnancy/spontaneous-abortion https://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/gynecology-and-obs... 2: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/maternal-mortality/2020/maternal-mortality-rates-2020.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/maternal-mortality/2020... 3: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/sexualviolence/understanding-RRP-inUS.html https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/sexualviolence/unders... 4: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/pregnancy-loss-miscarriage/symptoms-causes/syc-20354298#:~:text=About%2010%20to%2020%20percent%20of%20known%20pregnancies%20end%20in%20miscarriage.%20But%20the%20actual%20number%20is%20likely%20higher%20because%20many%20miscarriages%20occur%20very%20early%20in%20pregnancy%20%E2%80%94%20before%20you%20might%20even%20know%20about%20a%20pregnancy https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/pregnancy-los....
  - cato_the_elder 4y ago
    I looked at the abstracts of the references you provided, and the first two seem to share the general biases of these kind of studies. The first Lancet one has this as a finding: > The abortion rate was lower in subregions where more women live under liberal abortion laws (p<0·05) They don't seem to have corrected for other factors like rule of law, income, and level of economic development. The second Lancet one also suffers from the same issue (though at least acknowledge the rule if income), and the authors reveal their biases very soon: > We developed a new statistical model that jointly estimated unintended pregnancy and abortion that aimed to better inform efforts towards global equity in sexual and reproductive health and rights. The last one's [1] conclusions seem like they could be broadly correct. If no abortion is allowed at all, you'd expect more maternal deaths. However, the actual amount is disputable as this is based on modelling not concrete data. Additionally, they seem to be assuming a total ban on abortion, which doesn't seem realistic to me. > But go off and pat yourself on the back for fetuses having more value than the incubation receptacle they're within. Finally, we need to avoid personal attacks if we are going to have a fruitful discussion. [1]: https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/7g29k https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/7g29k
- mcguire 4y ago
  "“Late term” abortion typically refers to abortions obtained at or after 21 weeks, however it is not an accepted medical term, nor is there a consensus around to which gestational ages it refers. Members of the medical community have criticized the term “late-term” abortion, as it implies abortions are taking place after a pregnancy has reached “term” (37 weeks) or “late term” (>41 weeks) which is false. In fact, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) has written that “late-term abortion” has no medical meaning and should not be used in clinical or legal settings." "Abortions at or after 21 weeks are uncommon, and represent 1% of all abortions in the US. ... Reasons individuals seek abortions later in pregnancy include medical concerns such as fetal anomalies or maternal life endangerment, as well as barriers to care that cause delays in obtaining an abortion." (https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/fact-sheet/abortions-later-in-pregnancy/ https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/fact-sheet/abortion...)
filoleg 4y ago
As of today, abortions in Nebraska are still legal up to the 22nd week, with the exception of two small towns in the state. It was expanded from up to the 20th week in 2019.
- 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
  40% of Nebraska women from the ages 15-44 live in a county that has no abortion provider. There are insurance restrictions in Nebraska preventing assistance in paying for an abortion. Parental consent is required to get an abortion. There's a mandatory 24 hour waiting period where you must receive state-mandated abortion counseling. Telemedicine for abortion is banned. But, yeah, actually, this is way more access than most women in this country have to an abortion. Kudos, Nebraska. However, in February the state failed to pass a trigger law that would've banned all abortions when Roe v. Wade was overturned. Nebraska legislators have indicated they may call a special session to try again to pass the bill.
  - throwayyy479087 4y ago
    As someone from the Midwest, not having access to medical services nearby is the norm. Nebraska is not SF and there does not exist an expectation of immediate convenience. You are used to driving >3 hours for basically any sort of serious medical care, and generally you like it that way because it's quiet and close knit.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
      Geography is not the reason why it's been nearly impossible to get an abortion in conservative states for 50 years. Lack of access is a huge barrier to women who need abortions, which largely are the vulnerable, young, poor, people of color, and those with health complications.
      - 4y ago

saghm 4y ago

Well, yeah, that's probably because for nearly 50 years the government ostensibly recognized the right to have an abortion. Of course some people are going to be avoiding the system after recent events, and people who are afraid to seek help from others are more likely to resort to extreme measures out of desperation. I think they should adjust their expectations if they think this was a random outlier...

nathanaldensr 4y ago
This event occurred before Roe v. Wade was overturned, and it still being investigated.