24 ms·

Anyone can drop anything in your bank account, are you anxious about that?

echelon 4y ago
Performing an ACH will get your account picked up by the FinCEN and KYC dragnet. These are in no way comparable. I'm getting tired of these dishonest "crypto is the same" arguments. It's not even close. Banking is well regulated and monitored. There are mechanisms to protect people, rout out bad actors, and legal means to reverse transactions. Crypto is a "code is law" wild west, full of sharp edges and irreversible hacks and scams.
- gjs278 4y ago
- rvz 4y ago
  Maybe you can also ask how Santander 'Santa' Bank are doing after accidentally transferring or gifting £130M into people's accounts which they are still struggling to recover as the transfer is irreversible. [0] Maybe those affected have already spent their Christmas present from 'Santa'. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59826345 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59826345
  - yababa_y 4y ago
    Are there any important differences in this area between US and UK law?
- solveit 4y ago
  The correct comparison is "anyone can drop cash (or anything else) in your backpack" and yes, this does make me nervous especially when I'm traveling internationally. Also, it's harder to drop cash in your bag than it is to sign a crypto transaction.
  - labrador 4y ago
    This is the best analogy, eg "Someone made me their drug mule"
- t_mann 4y ago
  There are legal means to force the recipient to send back erroneously sent funds in bank payment systems, the transactions themselves are generally non-reversible (some banks learnt that the hard way after accidentally sending money to Lehman Brothers after their collapse). The same rules apply to blockchains too, and people have successfully demanded refunds where the other party was known. It seems that the reason you're seeing a tiring amount of seemingly false claims is that your own information set isn't exactly correct.
  - echelon 4y ago
    > your own information set isn't exactly correct My information is correct. I worked in fintech. > There are legal means to force the recipient to send back erroneously sent funds in bank payment systems, the transactions themselves are generally non-reversible (some banks learnt that the hard way after accidentally sending money to Lehman Brothers after their collapse). This is not evidence to the contrary. In fact, this bolsters my claim. > The same rules apply to blockchains too, and people have successfully demanded refunds where the other party was known. When the parties are known actors in jurisdictions you can reach. Crypto is a Wild West of anonymity, deception, rug pulling, scams, and hacks. It's constantly in the media for how often people are screwed by these systems. We wouldn't see frequent pleas for reversals if the system itself could actually restore victims. Banks are incredibly well regulated. You can't even start a bank without permission from the state, and applying for permits requires that you meet a multitude of criteria and have organizational and process maturity. Don't pretend crypto resembles banking. It's a shitty pasquinade.
    - t_mann 4y ago
      > My information is correct. It isn't: https://www.thelocal.de/20080917/14357/ https://www.thelocal.de/20080917/14357/ "Officials at KfW frantically attempted to stop the transaction once they realized what was happening, however, they were unable to get their money back."
      - spiralx 4y ago
        Sending money to an entity that then declares bankruptcy before the transaction can be reversed doesn't is unfortunate, but it's not a counter-example at all - indeed, the fact that they tried to reverse it undermines your point that transactions aren't reversible! The same bank came under fire a few years later for sending about $5.4bn to four banks by mistake, however they were able to recover all of that because they hadn't done that literally hours before the recipients went bankrupt. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/this-german-bank-accidentally-transferred-5-4-billion-second-time-in-8-years/articleshow/57828748.cms?from=mdr https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/busi...
- HeyZuess 4y ago
  > These are in no way comparable. I would suggest to you that you need to think of this in a different way. There are mechanism and then there are legalities. You may receive a transaction and you have a mechanism to reverse the transaction, but now your account is tagged as the sender is a known tracked account. You have just interacted with a known drug dealer, terrorist, enemy of state etc and you are now by association suspected of wrong doing. Reverse the transaction, your account is still a data point in some database. Send money to the wrong account, and yes you may stand a high chance of getting it back but you may not. The situation does differ when it comes to hacks though.
labrador 4y ago
The following scenario is unlikely with my regular banking account: A ransomware victim accidentally transfers 10 million dollars in Bitcoin to my account and the next day the ransomware actors show up armed and dangerous to my house demanding that I transfer it to their bank account
- valarauko 4y ago
  How would the ransomware actors know the home address of a random Bitcoin wallet?
  - NullPrefix 4y ago
    It's easier to link a regular bank account with a home address
  - labrador 4y ago
    My policy is to never assume I am anonymous on the internet because I am not a security expert. From what I read, most people can be found. I'm basing this on the clever way they found Dread Pirate Roberts. https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/newyork/news/press-releases/ross-ulbricht-aka-dread-pirate-roberts-sentenced-in-manhattan-federal-court-to-life-in-prison https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/newyork/news/pr...
    - valarauko 4y ago
      AFAIK, he wasn't found on the basis of his home address being figured out from his Bitcoin wallet. Could a determined state level actor hell-bent on tracking you down accomplish it, based just on a BTC wallet address? Dubious, but never say never. Could anybody short of a three letter agency do it? I don't think so.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  can you elaborate on why you think that is possible with Bitcoin?
  - 4y ago

Performing an ACH will get your account picked up by the FinCEN and KYC dragnet. These are in no way comparable. I'm getting tired of these dishonest "crypto is the same" arguments. It's not even close. Banking is well regulated and monitored. There are mechanisms to protect people, rout out bad actors, and legal means to reverse transactions. Crypto is a "code is law" wild west, full of sharp edges and irreversible hacks and scams.

gjs278 4y ago
rvz 4y ago
Maybe you can also ask how Santander 'Santa' Bank are doing after accidentally transferring or gifting £130M into people's accounts which they are still struggling to recover as the transfer is irreversible. [0] Maybe those affected have already spent their Christmas present from 'Santa'. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59826345 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59826345
- yababa_y 4y ago
  Are there any important differences in this area between US and UK law?
solveit 4y ago
The correct comparison is "anyone can drop cash (or anything else) in your backpack" and yes, this does make me nervous especially when I'm traveling internationally. Also, it's harder to drop cash in your bag than it is to sign a crypto transaction.
- labrador 4y ago
  This is the best analogy, eg "Someone made me their drug mule"
t_mann 4y ago
There are legal means to force the recipient to send back erroneously sent funds in bank payment systems, the transactions themselves are generally non-reversible (some banks learnt that the hard way after accidentally sending money to Lehman Brothers after their collapse). The same rules apply to blockchains too, and people have successfully demanded refunds where the other party was known. It seems that the reason you're seeing a tiring amount of seemingly false claims is that your own information set isn't exactly correct.
- echelon 4y ago
  > your own information set isn't exactly correct My information is correct. I worked in fintech. > There are legal means to force the recipient to send back erroneously sent funds in bank payment systems, the transactions themselves are generally non-reversible (some banks learnt that the hard way after accidentally sending money to Lehman Brothers after their collapse). This is not evidence to the contrary. In fact, this bolsters my claim. > The same rules apply to blockchains too, and people have successfully demanded refunds where the other party was known. When the parties are known actors in jurisdictions you can reach. Crypto is a Wild West of anonymity, deception, rug pulling, scams, and hacks. It's constantly in the media for how often people are screwed by these systems. We wouldn't see frequent pleas for reversals if the system itself could actually restore victims. Banks are incredibly well regulated. You can't even start a bank without permission from the state, and applying for permits requires that you meet a multitude of criteria and have organizational and process maturity. Don't pretend crypto resembles banking. It's a shitty pasquinade.
  - t_mann 4y ago
    > My information is correct. It isn't: https://www.thelocal.de/20080917/14357/ https://www.thelocal.de/20080917/14357/ "Officials at KfW frantically attempted to stop the transaction once they realized what was happening, however, they were unable to get their money back."
    - spiralx 4y ago
      Sending money to an entity that then declares bankruptcy before the transaction can be reversed doesn't is unfortunate, but it's not a counter-example at all - indeed, the fact that they tried to reverse it undermines your point that transactions aren't reversible! The same bank came under fire a few years later for sending about $5.4bn to four banks by mistake, however they were able to recover all of that because they hadn't done that literally hours before the recipients went bankrupt. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/this-german-bank-accidentally-transferred-5-4-billion-second-time-in-8-years/articleshow/57828748.cms?from=mdr https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/busi...
HeyZuess 4y ago
> These are in no way comparable. I would suggest to you that you need to think of this in a different way. There are mechanism and then there are legalities. You may receive a transaction and you have a mechanism to reverse the transaction, but now your account is tagged as the sender is a known tracked account. You have just interacted with a known drug dealer, terrorist, enemy of state etc and you are now by association suspected of wrong doing. Reverse the transaction, your account is still a data point in some database. Send money to the wrong account, and yes you may stand a high chance of getting it back but you may not. The situation does differ when it comes to hacks though.

labrador 4y ago

The following scenario is unlikely with my regular banking account: A ransomware victim accidentally transfers 10 million dollars in Bitcoin to my account and the next day the ransomware actors show up armed and dangerous to my house demanding that I transfer it to their bank account

valarauko 4y ago
How would the ransomware actors know the home address of a random Bitcoin wallet?
- NullPrefix 4y ago
  It's easier to link a regular bank account with a home address
- labrador 4y ago
  My policy is to never assume I am anonymous on the internet because I am not a security expert. From what I read, most people can be found. I'm basing this on the clever way they found Dread Pirate Roberts. https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/newyork/news/press-releases/ross-ulbricht-aka-dread-pirate-roberts-sentenced-in-manhattan-federal-court-to-life-in-prison https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/newyork/news/pr...
  - valarauko 4y ago
    AFAIK, he wasn't found on the basis of his home address being figured out from his Bitcoin wallet. Could a determined state level actor hell-bent on tracking you down accomplish it, based just on a BTC wallet address? Dubious, but never say never. Could anybody short of a three letter agency do it? I don't think so.
yieldcrv 4y ago
can you elaborate on why you think that is possible with Bitcoin?
- 4y ago