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Friendly reminder that leaded gasoline is still used today in airports all over the USA. If you live near an airport you are still affected by this in 2022.

by qqtt 4y ago

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
While leaded gas is technically still sold your comment is misleading to the point where it's basically just a lie. 100LL (aka avgas) has nowhere near the lead concentration that automotive fuels use, is used in much lower volume and with much less proximity to people than leaded automotive fuel. If you are concerned about lead exposure test for lead in and around where you live and what you consume. That is the primary vector of lead exposure in 2022. If you want to waste time with low effort comments direct them at the FAA because they are obstructing the current drop in unleaded replacement.
- wszfahwbwbaha 4y ago
  - googlryas 4y ago
    The low effort isn't in the concern, but just in literally the amount of effort OP put into their comment. They could at least attempt to quantify the effect they believe this has on people living near airports.
    - blululu 4y ago
      I don’t know if there is any known level of safe lead exposure. In terms of direct impact, this is going to be hard to measure but the risk is nonetheless real. In fact the difficulty of measuring the consequences of mass lead exposure was one of the best arguments out forth my oil refining companies back in the day to support leader gasoline. Not sure why all the burden of proof is on anyone who wants to avoid exposure to a dangerous chemical.
      - mcguire 4y ago
        "From 1976-1980 to 2015-2016, the geometric mean blood lead level (BLL) of the US population aged 1 to 74 years dropped from 12.8 to 0.82 μg/dL, a decline of 93.6%. Yet, an estimated 500 000 children aged 1 to 5 years have BLLs at or above the blood lead reference value of 5 μg/dL established by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Low levels of exposure can lead to adverse health effects. There is no safe level of lead exposure, and child BLLs less than 10 μg/dL are known to adversely affect IQ and behavior. When the exposure source is known, approximately 95% of BLLs of 25 μg/dL or higher are work-related among US adults. Despite much progress in reducing exposure to lead in the United States, there are challenges to eliminating exposure." (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6522252/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6522252/)
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - googlryas 4y ago
        You're right that no level of lead exposure is considered safe, but that doesn't mean that any lead exposure is going to have any kind of measurable effect on an organism. Shouldn't the impact of leaded avgas be easier to measure, since the concentrations should be higher around airports which send up a lot of leaded avgas planes? It's a different situation than where every car was burning leaded gas and everyone was pretty much exposed to it. The effects should be much more localized and therefore easier to study. The risk may be real, but it may be dwarfed by other sources of lead, making it a silly thing to worry yourself about. For example, you might get more lead into your body from 8oz of fruit juice than you would living a year near an airport.
- mcguire 4y ago
  https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1003231 https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1003231 "On the basis of distance to airport coefficients, children living within 500 m, 1,000 m, or 1,500 m of an airport had average blood lead levels that were 4.4, 3.8, or 2.1% higher, respectively, than other children." On the other hand, in 1971 lead averaged 2.5 g/gal. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6522252/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6522252/ which has a nifty graph of leaded gas use and air lead concentrations with the neat note, "The increase in air lead concentration between 2000 and 2001 is likely due to changes at sites near stationary industrial sources. The decline in air lead concentrations between 2001 and 2002 is likely due to lower lead concentrations at sites in Herculaneum, Missouri.") 100LL has about 2.1 g/gal. (https://www.exxonmobil.com/en/aviation/products-and-services/products/avgas-100ll https://www.exxonmobil.com/en/aviation/products-and-services...) Ah-hah: Herculaneum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herculaneum,_Missouri#Lead_pollution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herculaneum,_Missouri#Lead_pol...
hinkley 4y ago
When I was shopping for garden hoses I looked for contamination possibilities and it turns out some of those green hoses have lead in them as a stiffener. That may help explain the high lead tests in some areas. Especially where paint is not a likely vector. Old car exhaust does settle into soil particles.
- hammock 4y ago
  Garden hoses are absolutely awful for their plasticizer content (xenoestrogen) as well
  - loopdoend 4y ago
    It seems like there's no winning. Is there any conceivable way those chemicals could make their way into food? Should people use a watering can? Is there any avoiding contaminants in food? Do we live in a post-contaminant society? Even our compost is contaminated.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - pas 4y ago
      > Do we live in a post-contaminant society? the answer seems to be yes for most part of the world https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/13/a-chemical-hunger-part-iii-environmental-contaminants/ https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/13/a-chemical-hunger-p...
googlryas 4y ago
Can you attempt to quantify the effect? Because from my understanding it is basically nothing.
- qqtt 4y ago
  There are a few studies out there. This article references a couple studies as recently as 2020 which mention increased lead particles around airports. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/leaded-gas-was-phased-out-25-years-ago-why-are-n1264970 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/leaded-gas-wa... Link to actual EPA study: https://countyairports.sccgov.org/sites/g/files/exjcpb686/files/Model-extrapolated%20Est%20of%20Airbornn%20Lead%20Concentrations%20at%20US%20Airports.pdf https://countyairports.sccgov.org/sites/g/files/exjcpb686/fi... This study mentions the lead levels in children living in proximity to airports: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230438/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230438/ 2021 Santa Clara study found lead levels in children near airports similar to Flint michigan: https://news.sccgov.org/news-release/study-commissioned-county-santa-clara-finds-increased-lead-levels-children-living-near https://news.sccgov.org/news-release/study-commissioned-coun... Again, we are allowing leaded gas, which we know to be harmful, to be used in 2022, with demonstrable increases in lead levels especially for individuals living near airports.
hammock 4y ago
There was no widespread soil remediation so if you live near any road at all (that would be everyone) you are still affected by this. No need to be near an airport
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  Yeah, but you won't get internet virtue points, likes, retweets and shares screeching about the dirt the way you will complaining that general aviation still uses leaded gas hence why you never hear about it but you always hear about avgas which would be a solved problem if the FAA would just do their jobs.
- kragen 4y ago
  How mobile is the lead today? There are a number of extremely insoluble lead salts, such as the sulfide, the phosphate, the chromate, the titanate, some of the oxides, and even the carbonate and the sulfate. My mental model is that lead metal and the above-mentioned salts are basically immobile in the soil: you can have all the lead sulfide or metallic lead you want in your soil without it leaching into the groundwater or contaminating the tomatoes you grow in it. And lead ions (in the form of the acetate, for example) are only mobile until they bump into one of the anions mentioned above, at which point they get locked up for geological periods of time. Organic lead compounds like tetraethyllead are a much scarier problem, but they also get broken down into ionic lead over a period of years. Is that right? Am I misunderstanding the dynamics?
  - hammock 4y ago
    Lead in soil gets stirred up by wind, rain, humans and animals into the air all day long. Of particular risk as far as food contamination is concerned are leafy vegetables and shrubby fruits that grow near the ground (surface contamination, eventually binding to the food - not internal uptake necessarily). There are studies measuring these effects, you don’t have to take my word for it. Here is what the CDC has to say https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources/soil.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources/soil.htm

Friendly reminder that leaded gasoline is still used today in airports all over the USA. If you live near an airport you are still affected by this in 2022.

by qqtt 4y ago

Friendly reminder that leaded gasoline is still used today in airports all over the USA. If you live near an airport you are still affected by this in 2022.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

While leaded gas is technically still sold your comment is misleading to the point where it's basically just a lie. 100LL (aka avgas) has nowhere near the lead concentration that automotive fuels use, is used in much lower volume and with much less proximity to people than leaded automotive fuel. If you are concerned about lead exposure test for lead in and around where you live and what you consume. That is the primary vector of lead exposure in 2022. If you want to waste time with low effort comments direct them at the FAA because they are obstructing the current drop in unleaded replacement.

wszfahwbwbaha 4y ago
- googlryas 4y ago
  The low effort isn't in the concern, but just in literally the amount of effort OP put into their comment. They could at least attempt to quantify the effect they believe this has on people living near airports.
  - blululu 4y ago
    I don’t know if there is any known level of safe lead exposure. In terms of direct impact, this is going to be hard to measure but the risk is nonetheless real. In fact the difficulty of measuring the consequences of mass lead exposure was one of the best arguments out forth my oil refining companies back in the day to support leader gasoline. Not sure why all the burden of proof is on anyone who wants to avoid exposure to a dangerous chemical.
    - mcguire 4y ago
      "From 1976-1980 to 2015-2016, the geometric mean blood lead level (BLL) of the US population aged 1 to 74 years dropped from 12.8 to 0.82 μg/dL, a decline of 93.6%. Yet, an estimated 500 000 children aged 1 to 5 years have BLLs at or above the blood lead reference value of 5 μg/dL established by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Low levels of exposure can lead to adverse health effects. There is no safe level of lead exposure, and child BLLs less than 10 μg/dL are known to adversely affect IQ and behavior. When the exposure source is known, approximately 95% of BLLs of 25 μg/dL or higher are work-related among US adults. Despite much progress in reducing exposure to lead in the United States, there are challenges to eliminating exposure." (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6522252/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6522252/)
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - googlryas 4y ago
      You're right that no level of lead exposure is considered safe, but that doesn't mean that any lead exposure is going to have any kind of measurable effect on an organism. Shouldn't the impact of leaded avgas be easier to measure, since the concentrations should be higher around airports which send up a lot of leaded avgas planes? It's a different situation than where every car was burning leaded gas and everyone was pretty much exposed to it. The effects should be much more localized and therefore easier to study. The risk may be real, but it may be dwarfed by other sources of lead, making it a silly thing to worry yourself about. For example, you might get more lead into your body from 8oz of fruit juice than you would living a year near an airport.
mcguire 4y ago
https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1003231 https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1003231 "On the basis of distance to airport coefficients, children living within 500 m, 1,000 m, or 1,500 m of an airport had average blood lead levels that were 4.4, 3.8, or 2.1% higher, respectively, than other children." On the other hand, in 1971 lead averaged 2.5 g/gal. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6522252/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6522252/ which has a nifty graph of leaded gas use and air lead concentrations with the neat note, "The increase in air lead concentration between 2000 and 2001 is likely due to changes at sites near stationary industrial sources. The decline in air lead concentrations between 2001 and 2002 is likely due to lower lead concentrations at sites in Herculaneum, Missouri.") 100LL has about 2.1 g/gal. (https://www.exxonmobil.com/en/aviation/products-and-services/products/avgas-100ll https://www.exxonmobil.com/en/aviation/products-and-services...) Ah-hah: Herculaneum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herculaneum,_Missouri#Lead_pollution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herculaneum,_Missouri#Lead_pol...

hinkley 4y ago

When I was shopping for garden hoses I looked for contamination possibilities and it turns out some of those green hoses have lead in them as a stiffener. That may help explain the high lead tests in some areas. Especially where paint is not a likely vector. Old car exhaust does settle into soil particles.

hammock 4y ago
Garden hoses are absolutely awful for their plasticizer content (xenoestrogen) as well
- loopdoend 4y ago
  It seems like there's no winning. Is there any conceivable way those chemicals could make their way into food? Should people use a watering can? Is there any avoiding contaminants in food? Do we live in a post-contaminant society? Even our compost is contaminated.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - pas 4y ago
    > Do we live in a post-contaminant society? the answer seems to be yes for most part of the world https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/13/a-chemical-hunger-part-iii-environmental-contaminants/ https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2021/07/13/a-chemical-hunger-p...

googlryas 4y ago

Can you attempt to quantify the effect? Because from my understanding it is basically nothing.

qqtt 4y ago
There are a few studies out there. This article references a couple studies as recently as 2020 which mention increased lead particles around airports. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/leaded-gas-was-phased-out-25-years-ago-why-are-n1264970 https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/leaded-gas-wa... Link to actual EPA study: https://countyairports.sccgov.org/sites/g/files/exjcpb686/files/Model-extrapolated%20Est%20of%20Airbornn%20Lead%20Concentrations%20at%20US%20Airports.pdf https://countyairports.sccgov.org/sites/g/files/exjcpb686/fi... This study mentions the lead levels in children living in proximity to airports: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230438/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3230438/ 2021 Santa Clara study found lead levels in children near airports similar to Flint michigan: https://news.sccgov.org/news-release/study-commissioned-county-santa-clara-finds-increased-lead-levels-children-living-near https://news.sccgov.org/news-release/study-commissioned-coun... Again, we are allowing leaded gas, which we know to be harmful, to be used in 2022, with demonstrable increases in lead levels especially for individuals living near airports.

hammock 4y ago

There was no widespread soil remediation so if you live near any road at all (that would be everyone) you are still affected by this. No need to be near an airport

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
Yeah, but you won't get internet virtue points, likes, retweets and shares screeching about the dirt the way you will complaining that general aviation still uses leaded gas hence why you never hear about it but you always hear about avgas which would be a solved problem if the FAA would just do their jobs.
kragen 4y ago
How mobile is the lead today? There are a number of extremely insoluble lead salts, such as the sulfide, the phosphate, the chromate, the titanate, some of the oxides, and even the carbonate and the sulfate. My mental model is that lead metal and the above-mentioned salts are basically immobile in the soil: you can have all the lead sulfide or metallic lead you want in your soil without it leaching into the groundwater or contaminating the tomatoes you grow in it. And lead ions (in the form of the acetate, for example) are only mobile until they bump into one of the anions mentioned above, at which point they get locked up for geological periods of time. Organic lead compounds like tetraethyllead are a much scarier problem, but they also get broken down into ionic lead over a period of years. Is that right? Am I misunderstanding the dynamics?
- hammock 4y ago
  Lead in soil gets stirred up by wind, rain, humans and animals into the air all day long. Of particular risk as far as food contamination is concerned are leafy vegetables and shrubby fruits that grow near the ground (surface contamination, eventually binding to the food - not internal uptake necessarily). There are studies measuring these effects, you don’t have to take my word for it. Here is what the CDC has to say https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources/soil.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/lead/prevention/sources/soil.htm