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Car manufacturers are not without blame in this situation. Their products are designed to be difficult and expensive; bordering on impossible to service. I hav

by Phlarp 4y ago

Car manufacturers are not without blame in this situation. Their products are designed to be difficult and expensive; bordering on impossible to service. I have a mid 2000s sedan from the Ford motor company, recently the air conditioning stopped working; initially I engaged with a few different freelance mechanics, one billed me for a pressure system check / recharge, another said they didn't know what was wrong but could do "diagnostics" until I cried uncle on the costs. The car is worth maybe $3,000 so I can't justify a lot of repair costs on it, but at the same time the powertrain is still in great shape. The Ford dealership was able to pinpoint the actual problem, which was a $25 ambient temp sensor-- but it's buried in the center of the dash requiring $1000 worth of labor to replace. Ultimately I was able to find the ambient temp sensor pins on the glove box wiring harness and bridge them with a 47 cent resistor, tricking the computer into turning my AC back on. Cars could be so much better. We'd generate less waste if perfectly good vehicles weren't getting thrown away because Ford and GM designed them to fail in opaque and unserviceable ways, unfortunately things have been trending the opposite direction with BEVs and Tesla in particular.

stonemetal12 4y ago
Too true, My sister-in-law had a VW. She took it to a dealership to replace a headlight lightbulb. Cost several hundred dollars, it involved removing the bumper. Honestly not sure if it was a scam by the dealership or if the car was really that poorly designed.
- mbreese 4y ago
  My wife had to have a headlight replaced on a new car, about 2 years after owning it. There was a ton of work to replace it. Unlike my first car (ahem) years ago where this was a routine thing and took all of 5 minutes. So yes, it is now ridiculously complicated to replace lights. But here’s the kicker — my wife’s dealer had never had to do it before. They are so reliable that this was the first time they had to replace a light in that model. We walked in and asked them to replace it as if it was routine. They didn’t believe us that it was out. So, my guess, not knowing anything about the VW in question is that it really was that complicated, but not something that is expected to happen often.
  - tikhonj 4y ago
    Exactly the same thing is gradually happening with lights at home. In the past, light bulbs always had some variant of the standard screw-in socket because the bulbs would wear out so often; with modern LEDs, the lights last far longer so making them easy to replace is less important. At the same time, LEDs are so flexible in size and shape that forcing them into an easily replaceable form-factor is a much larger imposition. Between these two aspects, lamps without replaceable bulbs make a lot of sense from a purely practical design point of view.
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  Sometimes (see my comment upthread), it can't really be helped. I had the same reaction to the Service manual when a headlight on my 350Z went out: what do you mean I have to remove the bumper to change a lightbulb? Makes no sense. However, while it's possible to do it without removing the bumper (I go in through the wheel well), it's harder that way. The reality is that there isn't a lot of room in the first place, and headlights can last a very long time, so for an infrequent service it does make sense.
verisimi 4y ago
This is by design. How can it be that newer versions of the same electric car can't simply be fitted with a new battery? Instead the whole car has to be scraped. It's no mystery of course, if you think about it from the manufacturers perspective - it all about greater sales. The environmental perspective is just another sales angle really. I'm not big on cars. I would happily drive an open source car.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > How can it be that newer versions of the same electric car can't simply be fitted with a new battery? Instead the whole car has to be scraped. Which car are you thinking of? All of the EVs I know of let you replace the battery (granted, it may be an ordeal like the new Model Y with structural pack, but at least it's still possible and officially supported).
  - verisimi 4y ago
    I'm believe I'm thinking of the Nissan Leaf (was a little while ago). And I'm talking about upgrading the battery, not replacing like for like. The scenario is that an old battery can only store so much charge, which limits your range. However newer versions have better batteries and therefore longer ranges. The kicker is that the better battery cannot be fitted into a perfectly functional older car. Don't forget that the functionality of older batteries decreases too, with a loss of range. So you can fork out for a very expensive battery but it is for the old version only. Feels like a lose-lose scenario (expense and poor range). Frankly the electric car economics in general don't make sense for anyone that actually needs to cover some miles - the older cars lose range and will be an expensive headache in the future, and the newer versions are way too expensive for what they do. That was my analysis anyway, when I looked into buying a second hand EV.
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      > And I'm talking about upgrading the battery, not replacing like for like. It's quite rare for this to be possible in any component of anything you buy these days. Why single out EV batteries here?
semi-extrinsic 4y ago
FWIW, this sounds very similar to how the climate control in an old Volvo 240 works. There is a rheostat buried deep under the dash, and when it fails you can only select between ambient temperature air or Swedish Sauna Hot. If you find someone who has done this exact repair before, it will take them about 4 hours. If you DIY it as a decent mechanic, count on spending a whole weekend.
mey 4y ago
Example of that $1000 type labor job to that sensor. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S-eK5fH9f3s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S-eK5fH9f3s . Insanely poor design for repairs.
- Phlarp 4y ago
  Exactly like this! In my case, the center console + shifter assembly and driver side instrument panel all needed to be removed to access a sensor that is positioned behind the passenger side air bag.
HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
> Their products are designed to be difficult and expensive; bordering on impossible to service I've worked most of my career writing software to control physical objects. Nobody designs like this, it wouldn't even make sense. The reality is that there are always competing interests. The Service team wants things to be easy to repair, but the Sales team wants it to be cheap and easy to sell, while Marketing wants it to never breaks at all. You can't reconcile all of those. Sometimes engineers screw up. OK, often engineers screw up! But more often than not, functionality wins over everything and the engineer puts the sensor in the best place she can, given the constraints that she had to work with. Someone runs the reliability analysis and says that the sensor isn't likely to fail during the car's expected lifetime, so service isn't a big concern. Sometimes your specific car falls on the wrong side of that reliability curve, sometimes the engineer who did the analysis screwed up, or sometimes Shit Just Happens. But no one designs things to be hard to service: that would mean it's hard to build in the first place and just take too big a bite out of profits.
- Phlarp 4y ago
  >Someone runs the reliability analysis and says that the sensor isn't likely to fail during the car's expected lifetime Why exactly does the 'expected lifetime' of durable goods keep getting shorter? Forest, meet trees
  - HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
    Does it? Which goods? What predicate behavior are you comparing to?
rasz 4y ago
>The Ford dealership was able to pinpoint the actual problem, which was a $25 ambient temp sensor-- but it's buried in the center of the dash requiring $1000 worth of labor to replace. not ambient, Im guessing Evap Temperature Sensor. You can cut a hole in the dash to get to evaporator, JB weld compatible temp sensor to the side of it, and patch it to the wiring loom. One hour and a $10 thermistor to fully working AC. >bridge them with a 47 cent resistor, tricking the computer into turning my AC back on tricking your AC system into permanently engaged compressor clutch

by Phlarp 4y ago

stonemetal12 4y ago

Too true, My sister-in-law had a VW. She took it to a dealership to replace a headlight lightbulb. Cost several hundred dollars, it involved removing the bumper. Honestly not sure if it was a scam by the dealership or if the car was really that poorly designed.

mbreese 4y ago
My wife had to have a headlight replaced on a new car, about 2 years after owning it. There was a ton of work to replace it. Unlike my first car (ahem) years ago where this was a routine thing and took all of 5 minutes. So yes, it is now ridiculously complicated to replace lights. But here’s the kicker — my wife’s dealer had never had to do it before. They are so reliable that this was the first time they had to replace a light in that model. We walked in and asked them to replace it as if it was routine. They didn’t believe us that it was out. So, my guess, not knowing anything about the VW in question is that it really was that complicated, but not something that is expected to happen often.
- tikhonj 4y ago
  Exactly the same thing is gradually happening with lights at home. In the past, light bulbs always had some variant of the standard screw-in socket because the bulbs would wear out so often; with modern LEDs, the lights last far longer so making them easy to replace is less important. At the same time, LEDs are so flexible in size and shape that forcing them into an easily replaceable form-factor is a much larger imposition. Between these two aspects, lamps without replaceable bulbs make a lot of sense from a purely practical design point of view.
HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
Sometimes (see my comment upthread), it can't really be helped. I had the same reaction to the Service manual when a headlight on my 350Z went out: what do you mean I have to remove the bumper to change a lightbulb? Makes no sense. However, while it's possible to do it without removing the bumper (I go in through the wheel well), it's harder that way. The reality is that there isn't a lot of room in the first place, and headlights can last a very long time, so for an infrequent service it does make sense.

verisimi 4y ago

This is by design. How can it be that newer versions of the same electric car can't simply be fitted with a new battery? Instead the whole car has to be scraped. It's no mystery of course, if you think about it from the manufacturers perspective - it all about greater sales. The environmental perspective is just another sales angle really. I'm not big on cars. I would happily drive an open source car.

josephcsible 4y ago
> How can it be that newer versions of the same electric car can't simply be fitted with a new battery? Instead the whole car has to be scraped. Which car are you thinking of? All of the EVs I know of let you replace the battery (granted, it may be an ordeal like the new Model Y with structural pack, but at least it's still possible and officially supported).
- verisimi 4y ago
  I'm believe I'm thinking of the Nissan Leaf (was a little while ago). And I'm talking about upgrading the battery, not replacing like for like. The scenario is that an old battery can only store so much charge, which limits your range. However newer versions have better batteries and therefore longer ranges. The kicker is that the better battery cannot be fitted into a perfectly functional older car. Don't forget that the functionality of older batteries decreases too, with a loss of range. So you can fork out for a very expensive battery but it is for the old version only. Feels like a lose-lose scenario (expense and poor range). Frankly the electric car economics in general don't make sense for anyone that actually needs to cover some miles - the older cars lose range and will be an expensive headache in the future, and the newer versions are way too expensive for what they do. That was my analysis anyway, when I looked into buying a second hand EV.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    > And I'm talking about upgrading the battery, not replacing like for like. It's quite rare for this to be possible in any component of anything you buy these days. Why single out EV batteries here?

semi-extrinsic 4y ago

FWIW, this sounds very similar to how the climate control in an old Volvo 240 works. There is a rheostat buried deep under the dash, and when it fails you can only select between ambient temperature air or Swedish Sauna Hot. If you find someone who has done this exact repair before, it will take them about 4 hours. If you DIY it as a decent mechanic, count on spending a whole weekend.

mey 4y ago

Example of that $1000 type labor job to that sensor. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S-eK5fH9f3s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S-eK5fH9f3s . Insanely poor design for repairs.

Phlarp 4y ago
Exactly like this! In my case, the center console + shifter assembly and driver side instrument panel all needed to be removed to access a sensor that is positioned behind the passenger side air bag.

HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago

> Their products are designed to be difficult and expensive; bordering on impossible to service I've worked most of my career writing software to control physical objects. Nobody designs like this, it wouldn't even make sense. The reality is that there are always competing interests. The Service team wants things to be easy to repair, but the Sales team wants it to be cheap and easy to sell, while Marketing wants it to never breaks at all. You can't reconcile all of those. Sometimes engineers screw up. OK, often engineers screw up! But more often than not, functionality wins over everything and the engineer puts the sensor in the best place she can, given the constraints that she had to work with. Someone runs the reliability analysis and says that the sensor isn't likely to fail during the car's expected lifetime, so service isn't a big concern. Sometimes your specific car falls on the wrong side of that reliability curve, sometimes the engineer who did the analysis screwed up, or sometimes Shit Just Happens. But no one designs things to be hard to service: that would mean it's hard to build in the first place and just take too big a bite out of profits.

Phlarp 4y ago
>Someone runs the reliability analysis and says that the sensor isn't likely to fail during the car's expected lifetime Why exactly does the 'expected lifetime' of durable goods keep getting shorter? Forest, meet trees
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  Does it? Which goods? What predicate behavior are you comparing to?

rasz 4y ago

>The Ford dealership was able to pinpoint the actual problem, which was a $25 ambient temp sensor-- but it's buried in the center of the dash requiring $1000 worth of labor to replace. not ambient, Im guessing Evap Temperature Sensor. You can cut a hole in the dash to get to evaporator, JB weld compatible temp sensor to the side of it, and patch it to the wiring loom. One hour and a $10 thermistor to fully working AC. >bridge them with a 47 cent resistor, tricking the computer into turning my AC back on tricking your AC system into permanently engaged compressor clutch