3 ms·

Another looming reality is that F1 transmission Ferraris made prior to the DCT transmission introduced in the 458 are largely a ticking financial bomb: The cost

Another looming reality is that F1 transmission Ferraris made prior to the DCT transmission introduced in the 458 are largely a ticking financial bomb: The cost to replace the primitive paddle shift introduce late 90s and only somewhat perfected in the 430 Scuderia (around 09) is enormous. So much that these cars have depreciated significantly while manual versions have skyrocketed in value, especially the F430 manual. It's the uncomfortable truth that while Ferraris are great cars, they are horribly made, without much consideration for durability or efficiency that you find in German manufacturers. You might get lucky and never have to spend more than the yearly maintenance and oil changes but you certainly wouldn't push lot of KMs on it knowing what it does to your resale value and chances of "Ferrari recommended repairs". Ferrari feels like rackateering. Pay them a ridiculous premium for a non-stellar build quality and ever increasing residual fees to an authorized dealership that will be happy to charge you a few thousand dollars for something that costs way less elsewhere. Steering is light and doesn't instill a sense of confidence at high speeds like you would get with Lamborghini or Porsche. On top of that Ferrari can go after their own customers for doing whats within their fair use (ex. Purrari) and blacklist them so their cars cannot be serviced or out right banned from purchasing (ex. David Lee) for something that wasn't in their control. but my god they sound great and fun to drive. its just that the drama and high maintenance cost isn't an issue with other brands in this segment (except McLaren).

Kon-Peki 4y ago
I never got the impression that the DCT transmissions that Audi uses are all that durable either. They're probably all using the same supplier.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
kurupt213 4y ago
Who buys an automatic Ferrari?
- speedgoose 4y ago
  Most customers.
- tmh88j 4y ago
  Ferrari started removing manual transmissions from models in the late 2000's and hasn't offered one since the 599 which was discontinued in 2012, so everyone within the past 10-15 years.
  - kurupt213 4y ago
    Are they doing this because people don’t know how to drive anymore?
    - jonfw 4y ago
      They're doing it because the automatics perform better, sell better, package better, and have more gears
    - tmh88j 4y ago
      That's hardly the case. F1 cars haven't used manual transmissions since 1995. DCT's enable the absurdly fast 0-60 and lap times that people expect when they're paying hundreds of thousands for a car. This is nothing new. Modern supercars haven't been offered with manual transmissions across most brands for nearly 10 years. You won't find them in a McLaren or Lamborghini made in nearly the past decade. Even Porsche doesn't offer them on the top 911 trims. Audi ditched it for the R8 in 2015. I don't think Mercedes has ever offered one for their AMG cars. As far as drag racing goes most serious competitors uses automatic transmissions.
      - kurupt213 4y ago
        TIL. I had no idea the market had changed this much. I'm not in the Ferrari demo
kart23 4y ago
I feel like a lot of early 90s-early 2000s automatic sports cars have much less value compared to their manual counterparts, for example porsche and bmw. The price difference is probably much higher for ferrari because the parts to convert to manual are a lot rarer and more expensive. I've never driven a ferrari, but honestly the f430 or 360 seem like fun cars.
prova_modena 4y ago
Pre-458 F1 transmission cars have largely turned the corner on depreciation. The current macro-scale car market correction notwithstanding, even formerly undesirable models are stable. In some cases they have appreciated- looked at F355 prices lately? F1 cars have increased, although like you mention 6 speed cars are much higher. As far as the repairability of F1 transmissions, it's important to keep in mind that these are essentially 'automated' versions of the manual transmission, not conventional automatic transmissions. There's no torque converter, but there is a clutch like a regular manual. The parts that fail are not usually the expensive gearbox internals (which Ferrari is pretty good at), but rather the bits that automate the operation- pressure switches, hydraulic pumps and solenoids- and the clutch. These can be replaced and there are aftermarket solutions and parts-bin interchanges to fix this stuff. One mistake folks make with F1 cars is driving it like an automatic. Because the F1 gearbox is fundamentally an automated manual gearbox, driving it like a conventional automatic will cause premature wear. For example, creeping along in traffic or while parking is totally fine for a car with a regular auto trans, but in a F1-equipped Ferrari it will engage the clutch over and over again, slipping and wearing it in short order. This is partially a failure of interface design, as an F1 car will 'let' you drive it like an auto with little warning until you need an expensive clutch service in a couple thousand miles. This accounts for some of the bad reputation of F1 transmissions, as people drove it like a regular auto and racked up big service bills immediately. The second big mistake owners make is expecting a Ferrari dealer to service an older F1 transmission. First, they don't retain institutional knowledge and support of older systems, which means techs don't know them very well and official parts availability is bad. Second, dealer policy is usually to replace the entire transmission if there is a fault. They won't do the diagnostic work to figure out if it's just a switch or some other component fails. This creates a situation where the best outcome is paying an exorbitant amount for a new F1 transmission, and the worst outcome is being told the transmission is no longer available from the factory and being left with a dead car. Instead of a dealer, anyone with an older F1-equipped Ferrari needs to be working with an independent specialist that is familiar with these cars. Even if you need to transport the car a couple hundred miles away, it will likely cost less compared to the dealer. Good independents will know these older systems better than dealer techs and be able to try solutions that dealers won't consider (such as replacing/adjusting component parts or sourcing used parts to replace parts NLA from the factory). Their labor rates and parts cost will also be lower. All that said, yeah build quality and durability have never been Ferrari's strong suits. Porsche has always been the sensible supercar choice. However, there are ways to improve the old Ferrari ownership experience and all of them start with getting the car away from the dealer.

Kon-Peki 4y ago

I never got the impression that the DCT transmissions that Audi uses are all that durable either. They're probably all using the same supplier.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

kurupt213 4y ago

Who buys an automatic Ferrari?

speedgoose 4y ago
Most customers.
tmh88j 4y ago
Ferrari started removing manual transmissions from models in the late 2000's and hasn't offered one since the 599 which was discontinued in 2012, so everyone within the past 10-15 years.
- kurupt213 4y ago
  Are they doing this because people don’t know how to drive anymore?
  - jonfw 4y ago
    They're doing it because the automatics perform better, sell better, package better, and have more gears
  - tmh88j 4y ago
    That's hardly the case. F1 cars haven't used manual transmissions since 1995. DCT's enable the absurdly fast 0-60 and lap times that people expect when they're paying hundreds of thousands for a car. This is nothing new. Modern supercars haven't been offered with manual transmissions across most brands for nearly 10 years. You won't find them in a McLaren or Lamborghini made in nearly the past decade. Even Porsche doesn't offer them on the top 911 trims. Audi ditched it for the R8 in 2015. I don't think Mercedes has ever offered one for their AMG cars. As far as drag racing goes most serious competitors uses automatic transmissions.
    - kurupt213 4y ago
      TIL. I had no idea the market had changed this much. I'm not in the Ferrari demo

kart23 4y ago

I feel like a lot of early 90s-early 2000s automatic sports cars have much less value compared to their manual counterparts, for example porsche and bmw. The price difference is probably much higher for ferrari because the parts to convert to manual are a lot rarer and more expensive. I've never driven a ferrari, but honestly the f430 or 360 seem like fun cars.

prova_modena 4y ago

Pre-458 F1 transmission cars have largely turned the corner on depreciation. The current macro-scale car market correction notwithstanding, even formerly undesirable models are stable. In some cases they have appreciated- looked at F355 prices lately? F1 cars have increased, although like you mention 6 speed cars are much higher. As far as the repairability of F1 transmissions, it's important to keep in mind that these are essentially 'automated' versions of the manual transmission, not conventional automatic transmissions. There's no torque converter, but there is a clutch like a regular manual. The parts that fail are not usually the expensive gearbox internals (which Ferrari is pretty good at), but rather the bits that automate the operation- pressure switches, hydraulic pumps and solenoids- and the clutch. These can be replaced and there are aftermarket solutions and parts-bin interchanges to fix this stuff. One mistake folks make with F1 cars is driving it like an automatic. Because the F1 gearbox is fundamentally an automated manual gearbox, driving it like a conventional automatic will cause premature wear. For example, creeping along in traffic or while parking is totally fine for a car with a regular auto trans, but in a F1-equipped Ferrari it will engage the clutch over and over again, slipping and wearing it in short order. This is partially a failure of interface design, as an F1 car will 'let' you drive it like an auto with little warning until you need an expensive clutch service in a couple thousand miles. This accounts for some of the bad reputation of F1 transmissions, as people drove it like a regular auto and racked up big service bills immediately. The second big mistake owners make is expecting a Ferrari dealer to service an older F1 transmission. First, they don't retain institutional knowledge and support of older systems, which means techs don't know them very well and official parts availability is bad. Second, dealer policy is usually to replace the entire transmission if there is a fault. They won't do the diagnostic work to figure out if it's just a switch or some other component fails. This creates a situation where the best outcome is paying an exorbitant amount for a new F1 transmission, and the worst outcome is being told the transmission is no longer available from the factory and being left with a dead car. Instead of a dealer, anyone with an older F1-equipped Ferrari needs to be working with an independent specialist that is familiar with these cars. Even if you need to transport the car a couple hundred miles away, it will likely cost less compared to the dealer. Good independents will know these older systems better than dealer techs and be able to try solutions that dealers won't consider (such as replacing/adjusting component parts or sourcing used parts to replace parts NLA from the factory). Their labor rates and parts cost will also be lower. All that said, yeah build quality and durability have never been Ferrari's strong suits. Porsche has always been the sensible supercar choice. However, there are ways to improve the old Ferrari ownership experience and all of them start with getting the car away from the dealer.