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Honestly, I don’t care what happens to crypto bros. They put profit before environment. Fuck em.

TruthIsHeresy 4y ago
It’s amazing how well the media is able to reprogram the minds of the masses into mindlessly regurgitating its talking points. “Crypto bad” seems to be a big one for 2022.
- Taywee 4y ago
  There being next to nothing positive so far from cryptocurrencies for the past decade doesn't make it hard for the media to "reprogram" the minds of the masses. It's easy to convince somebody that something is bad when it's been overwhelmingly useless to negative on every single front except for speculative investment.
- gaspard234 4y ago
  In what way has 'the media' pushed crypto is bad? Seems like every celebrity and talk show host was pushing NFT's, be it Kardasians, Kimmel, Fallon, even Bill Murray released a collection 1 month ago. Ultra stars like Tom Brady to Mark Cuban were investing and (still) talking about crypto companies they are heavily invested in. Half the superbowl ads this year were advocating for people to waste money on crypto.
dogman144 4y ago
PoW uses less energy than global dishwasher usage. Do you feel similar sentiments against Home Depot and dishwasher users? Facebook data centers aren’t pretty either in this regard. Edit - additionally, tornado runs on eth, which is soon to be env-friendly PoS.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jakelazaroff 4y ago
  The whole point of the energy critique is that it's being wasted on something either useless or deleterious. You can argue with that take, but all you're doing with the "but what about dishwashers?!" response is asking them to pass a moral judgment on dishwashers, which isn't relevant to this discussion. Also, Ethereum has been "soon to be env-friendly PoS" for years now. Let's revisit that if and when it actually happens.
  - dogman144 4y ago
    Well the merge has hit test chains so it’s coming for eth main chain. Yes, you’re correct, the judgement is about what the energy is used for.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
    Cryptocurrencies are our only counter yet against the abuses of the financial system by the governments. In some countries this abuse is only potential, on others - already very real. In a country where a dictator can make you starve with a snap of the fingers, cryptocurrencies are vital to survival. So even 10x more energy 'wasted' on such an indespensable service would still be a bargain I'd take.
    - 8note 4y ago
      Protecting the wealthy from the government isn't exactly a cause many want to fight for. Using the government to reign in the wealthy is much more popular In a country where a dictator can make you starve with the snap of the finger, what are you going to do, eat your virtual coins from your jail cell? Technology is notably not a solution to social problems
      - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
        Protecting the wealthy? You have no clue about real problems of people resisting the dictatorship. Right now cryptocurrencies are the only reliable and untraceable way for Russian dissidents and underground to fund themselves. The key features are anonymousness and permission lessness, and Bitcoin/Monero can be turned into hard cash quite easily. Oh and it also allows you to receive funds from abroad with zero oversight, avoid paying taxes, etc. If there will ever be an uprising, it'll be funded with nothing else but cryptocurrency. So yes, cryptocurrencies are worth every watt of energy they use.
- andrewjmyers 4y ago
  So I'm actually interested in these figures. Bitcoin alone is estimated to use 150 terawatt-hours of electricity annually. The US Department of Energy estimates that there are 80 million households with dishwashers in the US (although they believe 16m never use them, but we will ignore that). It appears that the average dishwasher uses 251kWh annually (at the avg of 215 cycles per year). So this would put the US annual dishwasher power consumption to around 20 terawatt-hours. This would mean that the rest of the world would need approximately 518 million household dishwashers used 215 times a year each, to make up the rest of the power usage for just Bitcoin. When you start factoring in the size difference in dishwashers between countries, the power usage differences between 120v and 220v in different parts of the world, the overall adoption rate of dishwashers etc... it makes it hard to believe that they could compete with crypto power usage.
  - hattmall 4y ago
    518 million seems reasonable to low for the entire world and you are leaving out commercial places.
    - tragictrash 4y ago
      Remember, dishwashers are more efficient at using resources than washing them by hand. Bitcoin just consumes extra energy, not makes an existing process more efficient.
  - dogman144 4y ago
    Will have to find the dishwasher one but this is a good start/reputable source. Btc comes in under fridges. https://ccaf.io/cbeci/index/comparisons https://ccaf.io/cbeci/index/comparisons
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
  Dishwashers(especially newer ones) save energy(and definitely money if you're a restaurant) compared to handwashing though. And washing dishes is useful. Mining bitcoin arguably isn't in the sense that if bitcoin(and all other cryptocurrency) disappeared today, the world would be completely fine.
- xmonkee 4y ago
  Are you seriously claiming crypto is more useful than dishwashers?
  - dogman144 4y ago
    How often do angry articles hit HN ranting about Visa/MC cutting of spending to XYZ source based on moral judgments or investor pressure. Yes, free access to digital payments as an anchor of civil society beats clean dishes I don’t have to do by hand.
  - abriosi 4y ago
    It depends on what you consider "useful". I live in the west and I don't take our financial freedom as granted. There are many places in the world where decentralized consensus for financial transactions is valued. I'm grateful to live in a society where this is not a "problem", but I don't take it for granted
- realityking 4y ago
  > eth, which is soon to be env-friendly PoS. The switch has been delayed 6(!) times since 2017. It‘s perpetually happening “soon”. I believe it when it’s actually live.
  - dogman144 4y ago
    It’s live on testnests now so coming for main chain.
- paledot 4y ago
  A world where proof-of-work meant "prove that you cleaned your/my/someone's kitchen" would be a much better world.
capableweb 4y ago
This type of opinion is so sad to see, especially here on HN that tends to be relatively level-headed. I don't agree with a lot of things in the world, but the only thing I wish for them is for things to get better, not worse.
- tragictrash 4y ago
  If you look at his submissions and comment history, I don't worry so much, it's all hyper partisan politically influenced hot takes. The funny part is he's contributing to the problem, as in not realizing it's the working class vs the rich, not the left vs the right.

It’s amazing how well the media is able to reprogram the minds of the masses into mindlessly regurgitating its talking points. “Crypto bad” seems to be a big one for 2022.

Taywee 4y ago
There being next to nothing positive so far from cryptocurrencies for the past decade doesn't make it hard for the media to "reprogram" the minds of the masses. It's easy to convince somebody that something is bad when it's been overwhelmingly useless to negative on every single front except for speculative investment.
gaspard234 4y ago
In what way has 'the media' pushed crypto is bad? Seems like every celebrity and talk show host was pushing NFT's, be it Kardasians, Kimmel, Fallon, even Bill Murray released a collection 1 month ago. Ultra stars like Tom Brady to Mark Cuban were investing and (still) talking about crypto companies they are heavily invested in. Half the superbowl ads this year were advocating for people to waste money on crypto.

dogman144 4y ago

PoW uses less energy than global dishwasher usage. Do you feel similar sentiments against Home Depot and dishwasher users? Facebook data centers aren’t pretty either in this regard. Edit - additionally, tornado runs on eth, which is soon to be env-friendly PoS.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jakelazaroff 4y ago
The whole point of the energy critique is that it's being wasted on something either useless or deleterious. You can argue with that take, but all you're doing with the "but what about dishwashers?!" response is asking them to pass a moral judgment on dishwashers, which isn't relevant to this discussion. Also, Ethereum has been "soon to be env-friendly PoS" for years now. Let's revisit that if and when it actually happens.
- dogman144 4y ago
  Well the merge has hit test chains so it’s coming for eth main chain. Yes, you’re correct, the judgement is about what the energy is used for.
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  Cryptocurrencies are our only counter yet against the abuses of the financial system by the governments. In some countries this abuse is only potential, on others - already very real. In a country where a dictator can make you starve with a snap of the fingers, cryptocurrencies are vital to survival. So even 10x more energy 'wasted' on such an indespensable service would still be a bargain I'd take.
  - 8note 4y ago
    Protecting the wealthy from the government isn't exactly a cause many want to fight for. Using the government to reign in the wealthy is much more popular In a country where a dictator can make you starve with the snap of the finger, what are you going to do, eat your virtual coins from your jail cell? Technology is notably not a solution to social problems
    - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
      Protecting the wealthy? You have no clue about real problems of people resisting the dictatorship. Right now cryptocurrencies are the only reliable and untraceable way for Russian dissidents and underground to fund themselves. The key features are anonymousness and permission lessness, and Bitcoin/Monero can be turned into hard cash quite easily. Oh and it also allows you to receive funds from abroad with zero oversight, avoid paying taxes, etc. If there will ever be an uprising, it'll be funded with nothing else but cryptocurrency. So yes, cryptocurrencies are worth every watt of energy they use.
andrewjmyers 4y ago
So I'm actually interested in these figures. Bitcoin alone is estimated to use 150 terawatt-hours of electricity annually. The US Department of Energy estimates that there are 80 million households with dishwashers in the US (although they believe 16m never use them, but we will ignore that). It appears that the average dishwasher uses 251kWh annually (at the avg of 215 cycles per year). So this would put the US annual dishwasher power consumption to around 20 terawatt-hours. This would mean that the rest of the world would need approximately 518 million household dishwashers used 215 times a year each, to make up the rest of the power usage for just Bitcoin. When you start factoring in the size difference in dishwashers between countries, the power usage differences between 120v and 220v in different parts of the world, the overall adoption rate of dishwashers etc... it makes it hard to believe that they could compete with crypto power usage.
- hattmall 4y ago
  518 million seems reasonable to low for the entire world and you are leaving out commercial places.
  - tragictrash 4y ago
    Remember, dishwashers are more efficient at using resources than washing them by hand. Bitcoin just consumes extra energy, not makes an existing process more efficient.
- dogman144 4y ago
  Will have to find the dishwasher one but this is a good start/reputable source. Btc comes in under fridges. https://ccaf.io/cbeci/index/comparisons https://ccaf.io/cbeci/index/comparisons
mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
Dishwashers(especially newer ones) save energy(and definitely money if you're a restaurant) compared to handwashing though. And washing dishes is useful. Mining bitcoin arguably isn't in the sense that if bitcoin(and all other cryptocurrency) disappeared today, the world would be completely fine.
xmonkee 4y ago
Are you seriously claiming crypto is more useful than dishwashers?
- dogman144 4y ago
  How often do angry articles hit HN ranting about Visa/MC cutting of spending to XYZ source based on moral judgments or investor pressure. Yes, free access to digital payments as an anchor of civil society beats clean dishes I don’t have to do by hand.
- abriosi 4y ago
  It depends on what you consider "useful". I live in the west and I don't take our financial freedom as granted. There are many places in the world where decentralized consensus for financial transactions is valued. I'm grateful to live in a society where this is not a "problem", but I don't take it for granted
realityking 4y ago
> eth, which is soon to be env-friendly PoS. The switch has been delayed 6(!) times since 2017. It‘s perpetually happening “soon”. I believe it when it’s actually live.
- dogman144 4y ago
  It’s live on testnests now so coming for main chain.
paledot 4y ago
A world where proof-of-work meant "prove that you cleaned your/my/someone's kitchen" would be a much better world.

capableweb 4y ago

This type of opinion is so sad to see, especially here on HN that tends to be relatively level-headed. I don't agree with a lot of things in the world, but the only thing I wish for them is for things to get better, not worse.

tragictrash 4y ago
If you look at his submissions and comment history, I don't worry so much, it's all hyper partisan politically influenced hot takes. The funny part is he's contributing to the problem, as in not realizing it's the working class vs the rich, not the left vs the right.