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I think its important to make a distinction between GitHub attempting to ensure they are in legal compliance with a sanction and approving of the sanction happe

I think its important to make a distinction between GitHub attempting to ensure they are in legal compliance with a sanction and approving of the sanction happening at all. You can disagree with the sanction while still being understanding of GitHub trying to cut ties with the sanctioned entity. Or be critical of them being heavy handed in their compliance but agree with the sanction in general.

dogman144 4y ago
You’d be on the “be reasonable” side of this I suppose. Plenty of organizations in the past have chosen what side of this conceptual line to stand on. One can end up looking like the EFF with a long term, very strong reputation of standing up for clear boundaries of what’s right in the legal<>code context and go to court over it, or you can end up looking like GitHub.
- revscat 4y ago
  Honestly, I don’t care what happens to crypto bros. They put profit before environment. Fuck em.
  - TruthIsHeresy 4y ago
    It’s amazing how well the media is able to reprogram the minds of the masses into mindlessly regurgitating its talking points. “Crypto bad” seems to be a big one for 2022.
    - Taywee 4y ago
      There being next to nothing positive so far from cryptocurrencies for the past decade doesn't make it hard for the media to "reprogram" the minds of the masses. It's easy to convince somebody that something is bad when it's been overwhelmingly useless to negative on every single front except for speculative investment.
    - gaspard234 4y ago
      In what way has 'the media' pushed crypto is bad? Seems like every celebrity and talk show host was pushing NFT's, be it Kardasians, Kimmel, Fallon, even Bill Murray released a collection 1 month ago. Ultra stars like Tom Brady to Mark Cuban were investing and (still) talking about crypto companies they are heavily invested in. Half the superbowl ads this year were advocating for people to waste money on crypto.
  - dogman144 4y ago
    PoW uses less energy than global dishwasher usage. Do you feel similar sentiments against Home Depot and dishwasher users? Facebook data centers aren’t pretty either in this regard. Edit - additionally, tornado runs on eth, which is soon to be env-friendly PoS.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - jakelazaroff 4y ago
      The whole point of the energy critique is that it's being wasted on something either useless or deleterious. You can argue with that take, but all you're doing with the "but what about dishwashers?!" response is asking them to pass a moral judgment on dishwashers, which isn't relevant to this discussion. Also, Ethereum has been "soon to be env-friendly PoS" for years now. Let's revisit that if and when it actually happens.
      - dogman144 4y ago
        Well the merge has hit test chains so it’s coming for eth main chain. Yes, you’re correct, the judgement is about what the energy is used for.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
        Cryptocurrencies are our only counter yet against the abuses of the financial system by the governments. In some countries this abuse is only potential, on others - already very real. In a country where a dictator can make you starve with a snap of the fingers, cryptocurrencies are vital to survival. So even 10x more energy 'wasted' on such an indespensable service would still be a bargain I'd take.
        8note 4y ago
        Protecting the wealthy from the government isn't exactly a cause many want to fight for. Using the government to reign in the wealthy is much more popular In a country where a dictator can make you starve with the snap of the finger, what are you going to do, eat your virtual coins from your jail cell? Technology is notably not a solution to social problems
  - capableweb 4y ago
    This type of opinion is so sad to see, especially here on HN that tends to be relatively level-headed. I don't agree with a lot of things in the world, but the only thing I wish for them is for things to get better, not worse.
    - tragictrash 4y ago
      If you look at his submissions and comment history, I don't worry so much, it's all hyper partisan politically influenced hot takes. The funny part is he's contributing to the problem, as in not realizing it's the working class vs the rich, not the left vs the right.
- Bedon292 4y ago
  What grounds would there be to fight? I don't think GitHub has any standing to fight the sanctions themselves. And if an entity is sanctioned all US persons and companies must stop providing them services. Hosting a git repo for them certainly counts as a service, doesn't it? Perhaps there is some grey area as to what qualifies as a service being provided to that entity. Is my fork still a service being provided to them? Or is it a service being provided to me? But that is still something useful to the sanctioned entity, so am I now providing them a service? In which case GitHub is still a party to providing them a service.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  EFF doesn't have >$100Bn of profits per year. When you're a donation based non-profit, it's easy to "stand up for clear boundaries". In fact, it's literally your purpose. When you've got >$100Bn of profits on the line, it's a little harder - and you have a different purpose (i.e. to make money).
  - dogman144 4y ago
    I don’t think it was particularly easy for Phil Zimmerman, random computer programmer who built something but could also go work for MSFT instead, to standup to big time jail Arms Export laws over his something he built.
  - dingleberry420 4y ago
    So you're saying that microsoft has more money to work with? Everything I know about the legal system shows that the more money you have, the easier it is to get your way.
    - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
      Their way is to make money - not to fight for political issues.
- Beltalowda 4y ago
  > One can end up looking like the EFF with a long term, very strong reputation of standing up for clear boundaries of what’s right in the legal<>code context and go to court over it, or you can end up looking like GitHub. There's a massive difference between "nope, I won't comply with the law" and "I think this law is a bad idea, let's go to the courts to see if we can do something about it". And GitHub has done the last, too, to restore access to Iranian developers for example.
sneak 4y ago
> still being understanding of GitHub trying to cut ties with the sanctioned entity What is the name of this sanctioned entity that GitHub supposedly cut ties with? You'll note that none of the developers who had their accounts suspended were themselves sanctioned.
- Bedon292 4y ago
  Tornado Cash, which had an organization on GitHub and the developers were members of that organization. I don't know if I agree with the decision but I certainly understand why it would be made by a lawyer trying to ensure they are in compliance with a sanction as soon as possible.
  - sneak 4y ago
    GitHub organizations are not legal entities. As far as I know, Tornado Cash is not a legal entity either.
ymolodtsov 4y ago
I think shutting down the repo would be more than enough.

dogman144 4y ago

You’d be on the “be reasonable” side of this I suppose. Plenty of organizations in the past have chosen what side of this conceptual line to stand on. One can end up looking like the EFF with a long term, very strong reputation of standing up for clear boundaries of what’s right in the legal<>code context and go to court over it, or you can end up looking like GitHub.

revscat 4y ago
Honestly, I don’t care what happens to crypto bros. They put profit before environment. Fuck em.
- TruthIsHeresy 4y ago
  It’s amazing how well the media is able to reprogram the minds of the masses into mindlessly regurgitating its talking points. “Crypto bad” seems to be a big one for 2022.
  - Taywee 4y ago
    There being next to nothing positive so far from cryptocurrencies for the past decade doesn't make it hard for the media to "reprogram" the minds of the masses. It's easy to convince somebody that something is bad when it's been overwhelmingly useless to negative on every single front except for speculative investment.
  - gaspard234 4y ago
    In what way has 'the media' pushed crypto is bad? Seems like every celebrity and talk show host was pushing NFT's, be it Kardasians, Kimmel, Fallon, even Bill Murray released a collection 1 month ago. Ultra stars like Tom Brady to Mark Cuban were investing and (still) talking about crypto companies they are heavily invested in. Half the superbowl ads this year were advocating for people to waste money on crypto.
- dogman144 4y ago
  PoW uses less energy than global dishwasher usage. Do you feel similar sentiments against Home Depot and dishwasher users? Facebook data centers aren’t pretty either in this regard. Edit - additionally, tornado runs on eth, which is soon to be env-friendly PoS.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - jakelazaroff 4y ago
    The whole point of the energy critique is that it's being wasted on something either useless or deleterious. You can argue with that take, but all you're doing with the "but what about dishwashers?!" response is asking them to pass a moral judgment on dishwashers, which isn't relevant to this discussion. Also, Ethereum has been "soon to be env-friendly PoS" for years now. Let's revisit that if and when it actually happens.
    - dogman144 4y ago
      Well the merge has hit test chains so it’s coming for eth main chain. Yes, you’re correct, the judgement is about what the energy is used for.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
      Cryptocurrencies are our only counter yet against the abuses of the financial system by the governments. In some countries this abuse is only potential, on others - already very real. In a country where a dictator can make you starve with a snap of the fingers, cryptocurrencies are vital to survival. So even 10x more energy 'wasted' on such an indespensable service would still be a bargain I'd take.
      - 8note 4y ago
        Protecting the wealthy from the government isn't exactly a cause many want to fight for. Using the government to reign in the wealthy is much more popular In a country where a dictator can make you starve with the snap of the finger, what are you going to do, eat your virtual coins from your jail cell? Technology is notably not a solution to social problems
- capableweb 4y ago
  This type of opinion is so sad to see, especially here on HN that tends to be relatively level-headed. I don't agree with a lot of things in the world, but the only thing I wish for them is for things to get better, not worse.
  - tragictrash 4y ago
    If you look at his submissions and comment history, I don't worry so much, it's all hyper partisan politically influenced hot takes. The funny part is he's contributing to the problem, as in not realizing it's the working class vs the rich, not the left vs the right.
Bedon292 4y ago
What grounds would there be to fight? I don't think GitHub has any standing to fight the sanctions themselves. And if an entity is sanctioned all US persons and companies must stop providing them services. Hosting a git repo for them certainly counts as a service, doesn't it? Perhaps there is some grey area as to what qualifies as a service being provided to that entity. Is my fork still a service being provided to them? Or is it a service being provided to me? But that is still something useful to the sanctioned entity, so am I now providing them a service? In which case GitHub is still a party to providing them a service.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
EFF doesn't have >$100Bn of profits per year. When you're a donation based non-profit, it's easy to "stand up for clear boundaries". In fact, it's literally your purpose. When you've got >$100Bn of profits on the line, it's a little harder - and you have a different purpose (i.e. to make money).
- dogman144 4y ago
  I don’t think it was particularly easy for Phil Zimmerman, random computer programmer who built something but could also go work for MSFT instead, to standup to big time jail Arms Export laws over his something he built.
- dingleberry420 4y ago
  So you're saying that microsoft has more money to work with? Everything I know about the legal system shows that the more money you have, the easier it is to get your way.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    Their way is to make money - not to fight for political issues.
Beltalowda 4y ago
> One can end up looking like the EFF with a long term, very strong reputation of standing up for clear boundaries of what’s right in the legal<>code context and go to court over it, or you can end up looking like GitHub. There's a massive difference between "nope, I won't comply with the law" and "I think this law is a bad idea, let's go to the courts to see if we can do something about it". And GitHub has done the last, too, to restore access to Iranian developers for example.

sneak 4y ago

> still being understanding of GitHub trying to cut ties with the sanctioned entity What is the name of this sanctioned entity that GitHub supposedly cut ties with? You'll note that none of the developers who had their accounts suspended were themselves sanctioned.

Bedon292 4y ago
Tornado Cash, which had an organization on GitHub and the developers were members of that organization. I don't know if I agree with the decision but I certainly understand why it would be made by a lawyer trying to ensure they are in compliance with a sanction as soon as possible.
- sneak 4y ago
  GitHub organizations are not legal entities. As far as I know, Tornado Cash is not a legal entity either.

ymolodtsov 4y ago

I think shutting down the repo would be more than enough.