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> To get into the market, most people need to put in all the money they’ve ever saved plus a good fraction of all the money they’ll ever earn in the future. Th

by pc86 4y ago

> To get into the market, most people need to put in all the money they’ve ever saved plus a good fraction of all the money they’ll ever earn in the future. This is only true in the most expensive metro areas - nobody forces anybody to live there except for rare combinations like NYC + investment banking, which also tend to be very well compensated. There are plenty of low profile metros with tons of amenities and reasonable housing markets (especially now as home prices will come back from orbit and after some time, rents along with them). My fiance and I bought 3-4 months ago and mortgage + taxes is approximately 13% of our take home pay. We make good money but nothing astronomical (no FAANG salaries for sure, for either of us) and by every reasonable metric we make 2-2.5x what we need to in order to afford this house without dumping our entire lives into it.

Spivak 4y ago
> This is only true in the most expensive metro areas This is true in all metro areas. Mortgage lenders are actually having to loosen the "percentage of cash flow one spends on a mortgage" requirements because without spending a third if your income you can't buy into the market. I live in a famously inexpensive housing market and a house that sold for $300k last year is now going for $450k. This is not just NYC and SF, it's the same story in Austin, Seattle, Atlanta, Columbus, Minneapolis, Dever. Nobody forces you to live where the jobs in your field are, got it. I cannot understand how people assume that everyone just has the mobility to just pick up their entire lives (like they don't have friends and family), sell their house (which is taking a loss now), move and be able to find a job anywhere. Like good lord not everyone works in a field where you can work remotely from a cabin in the woods. Some people do actually have to be on-prem. So many people in this thread are vastly overestimating the agency people in real life have to participate (or not) in the systems that surround them. If the SWE job market ever cools off I feel like the tone is going to shift dramatically.
- pc86 4y ago
  It's not true in all metros. I am within a reasonable daily commute to a major city. Being willing and able to move ~30 miles would add two other major cities. At least one of them, by nearly all metrics, is more expensive than several of the cities you listed. And just because home prices drop a fraction of a percent doesn't mean you're suddenly taking a six figure loss if you sell and move, especially if like your example the price has increased 50% in the last year.
- harambae 4y ago
  > sell their house (which is taking a loss now) This may be true for some human being in America (almost certainly is, in fact, given the size of the country) but on the whole no one is taking a loss yet [0] [0] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ASPUS https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ASPUS
  - Spivak 4y ago
    Oh for sure it's just funny how these two statements are right next to one another in this thread. * "It's great that housing prices are dropping (which makes it more difficult than it already is to move)" * "If you can't afford a mortgage just move"
- yardie 4y ago
  Lenders have always been able to loosen their standards. A non-conforming conventional mortgage gets bought and sold on the private market rather than Fannie Mae. But they are also slightly higher interest because they are riskier. > If the SWE job market ever cools off So far it's only the SWE market cooling. Friends in health, education, logistics are beating back recruiters. These are occupations that have been underserved for decades and only worked as long as they have because of solid pensions. But now those retirements are coming due and no one has built the staffing pipeline. Management watched the average employee age increase every year until it was equal to retirement age and here we are. SWE market is extremely young and doesn't have nearly the same recruitment problem.
random314 4y ago
> nobody forces anybody to live there except Metros are metros for a reason. People dont choose to live in a tiny expensive house because they are too stupid to move elsewhere. They are there because that is the best option available to them.
- pc86 4y ago
  They are there because they choose to be there. Which is fine, but it's a bit like that Eric André meme[0] to choose to live in an expensive metro then complain that the metro is too expensive to live in. [0] https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Who-Killed-Hannibal.jpg https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Who-Killed-Hannibal.jpg
  - random314 4y ago
    There is no point arguing in circles. I disagree with your premise that the millions of people living in expensive cities live there because they are too stupid to make smarter decisions unlike you.
    - pc86 4y ago
      If we're going in circles it's because you're arguing against the point you think I'm making instead of the point I'm actually making. I never said anyone was stupid. There are plenty of valid reasons to live in one specific area, family/spouse/kids being a great example.

by pc86 4y ago

Spivak 4y ago

> This is only true in the most expensive metro areas This is true in all metro areas. Mortgage lenders are actually having to loosen the "percentage of cash flow one spends on a mortgage" requirements because without spending a third if your income you can't buy into the market. I live in a famously inexpensive housing market and a house that sold for $300k last year is now going for $450k. This is not just NYC and SF, it's the same story in Austin, Seattle, Atlanta, Columbus, Minneapolis, Dever. Nobody forces you to live where the jobs in your field are, got it. I cannot understand how people assume that everyone just has the mobility to just pick up their entire lives (like they don't have friends and family), sell their house (which is taking a loss now), move and be able to find a job anywhere. Like good lord not everyone works in a field where you can work remotely from a cabin in the woods. Some people do actually have to be on-prem. So many people in this thread are vastly overestimating the agency people in real life have to participate (or not) in the systems that surround them. If the SWE job market ever cools off I feel like the tone is going to shift dramatically.

pc86 4y ago
It's not true in all metros. I am within a reasonable daily commute to a major city. Being willing and able to move ~30 miles would add two other major cities. At least one of them, by nearly all metrics, is more expensive than several of the cities you listed. And just because home prices drop a fraction of a percent doesn't mean you're suddenly taking a six figure loss if you sell and move, especially if like your example the price has increased 50% in the last year.
harambae 4y ago
> sell their house (which is taking a loss now) This may be true for some human being in America (almost certainly is, in fact, given the size of the country) but on the whole no one is taking a loss yet [0] [0] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ASPUS https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ASPUS
- Spivak 4y ago
  Oh for sure it's just funny how these two statements are right next to one another in this thread. * "It's great that housing prices are dropping (which makes it more difficult than it already is to move)" * "If you can't afford a mortgage just move"
yardie 4y ago
Lenders have always been able to loosen their standards. A non-conforming conventional mortgage gets bought and sold on the private market rather than Fannie Mae. But they are also slightly higher interest because they are riskier. > If the SWE job market ever cools off So far it's only the SWE market cooling. Friends in health, education, logistics are beating back recruiters. These are occupations that have been underserved for decades and only worked as long as they have because of solid pensions. But now those retirements are coming due and no one has built the staffing pipeline. Management watched the average employee age increase every year until it was equal to retirement age and here we are. SWE market is extremely young and doesn't have nearly the same recruitment problem.

random314 4y ago

> nobody forces anybody to live there except Metros are metros for a reason. People dont choose to live in a tiny expensive house because they are too stupid to move elsewhere. They are there because that is the best option available to them.

pc86 4y ago
They are there because they choose to be there. Which is fine, but it's a bit like that Eric André meme[0] to choose to live in an expensive metro then complain that the metro is too expensive to live in. [0] https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Who-Killed-Hannibal.jpg https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Who-Killed-Hannibal.jpg
- random314 4y ago
  There is no point arguing in circles. I disagree with your premise that the millions of people living in expensive cities live there because they are too stupid to make smarter decisions unlike you.
  - pc86 4y ago
    If we're going in circles it's because you're arguing against the point you think I'm making instead of the point I'm actually making. I never said anyone was stupid. There are plenty of valid reasons to live in one specific area, family/spouse/kids being a great example.