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I am by no means a fan of Tornado and what it represents in the crypto community - I think crypto has enough cretins already. But this is definitely a bit of a

I am by no means a fan of Tornado and what it represents in the crypto community - I think crypto has enough cretins already. But this is definitely a bit of a stretch to go after the creator(s) in this way. Reminds me of the US Gov trying to ban/limit all encryption. Didn't seem okay then and this doesn't seem okay now.

egorfine 4y ago
Not after the creators. The contributors. People who were submitting code changes to an absolutely legal piece of software.
- darkcha0s 4y ago
  ...that enabled nefarious people to go about their deeds unpunished.
  - break_the_bank 4y ago
    The nefarious people were probably on a unix system or a windows system. Should we go about and delete their contributors accounts as well? I’m not at all pro crypto but this enforcement does seem extreme. I do understand that Microsoft is just following the sanctions.
    - cmeacham98 4y ago
      This is disingenuous. It's like responding to someone arguing for gun control with "all the shooters drank water, should we ban that?". We can argue about the legit/legal uses of Tornado Cash and whether it deserves to be sanctioned - but do so in good faith rather than pretending like it is equivalent to a general purpose tool like Microsoft Windows.
      - break_the_bank 4y ago
        The tweet is very low information for me to comment. I can't tell whether these people contributed to Tornado cash before/after the sanctions were in place. I think a fairer analogy would be, some devs contributed to signal, signal or a derivative of it got used by North Korea/Terrorist/current enemy of choice of the political class. Do we go around and delete the developers GitHub accounts? Having never used tornado.cash or much of crypto (apart from making some money doing spot trades) I can't comment on what the good use cases are. Here's a sample thread of Vitalik claiming to use Tornado.cash to donate to people in Ukraine https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/1556925602233569280 https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/155692560223356928.... I can find some other threads like this on Twitter. This is just another case of Government choosing "security" over privacy and should be scary to folks on HN than be cheered upon. As a side, I am not sure whether Tornado.cash was marketed specifically for "bad" use cases. In the example below I'd support the DoJ in fining & imprisoning a software engineer for his visit to Pyongyang https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-citizen-who-conspired-assist-north-korea-evading-sanctions-sentenced-over-five-years-and https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-citizen-who-conspired-assi...
  - barnabee 4y ago
    It's noone's responsibility not to make things that are helpful to criminals.
  - egorfine 4y ago
    I know right! Just like the browser you are using to post this comment.
    - darkcha0s 4y ago
      That's a false equivalence and you know it. A browser and a coin mixer have 2 very different core audiences, aiming to do very different things. I don't know anyone who has legitimate uses for a coin mixer other than laundering/covering their tracks.
      - egorfine 4y ago
        > I don't know anyone who has legitimate uses for a coin mixer other than laundering/covering their tracks. Thank you for writing "I don't know anyone" instead of a more typical "no one ever".
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- shkkmo 4y ago
  AFAIK, it is indeed just the three creator accounts that got suspended.
syzygyhack 4y ago
Your vitriol against Tornado is misplaced, though not surprising given the general ignorance regarding the blockchain industry on HN.
- bilekas 4y ago
  I don't have particular vitriol against Tornado itself, they do offer compliance tool and seem to have just been an eventual outcome in crypto. I do however have an issue with the incredibly high rate of money laundering etc that flows through crypto. Particularly so with Tornado cash. It's the 'go-to' for easy money laundering. And no that's not a 'general ignorance' it's just a bi-product of having decentralized systems, it's not for me. That doesn't mean people are ignorant of it. Edit: It really irks me this "oh you just don't get it" from some people. It's unproductive and from my own experience, incorrect. They give crypto supporters a bad name.
  - syzygyhack 4y ago
    > I do however have an issue with the incredibly high rate of money laundering etc that flows through crypto. Incredibly high relative to what exactly? The total exchange volume of the cryptocurrency industry? Can you show some figures to back that assertion? OR are you talking relative to the global economy? In that case, it's not even a drop in the bucket. Clearly the Tornado Cash team should have simply started a bank instead, then they would only need pay a fine and carry on.
    - bilekas 4y ago
      Incredibly high rate of money laundering in relation to the entire flow of cyrpto. You should know comparing traditional fiat against crypto doesn't make sense.. But I guess I'm the one who's ignorant. There is a good paper overviewing a lot here : https://www.unive.it/pag/fileadmin/user_upload/dipartimenti/economia/doc-eng/eudifin/wp/WP10.pdf https://www.unive.it/pag/fileadmin/user_upload/dipartimenti/... It's more of an essay but all all stats are referenced. Also another good read : https://ciphertrace.com/q3-2018-cryptocurrency-anti-money-laundering-report/ https://ciphertrace.com/q3-2018-cryptocurrency-anti-money-la... You simply can't argue that money laundering isn't rampant on cypto currencies. Also just another clarification from your earlier comment : > Your vitriol against Tornado is misplaced, though not surprising given the general ignorance regarding the blockchain industry on HN. Blockchain != Crypto

egorfine 4y ago

Not after the creators. The contributors. People who were submitting code changes to an absolutely legal piece of software.

darkcha0s 4y ago
...that enabled nefarious people to go about their deeds unpunished.
- break_the_bank 4y ago
  The nefarious people were probably on a unix system or a windows system. Should we go about and delete their contributors accounts as well? I’m not at all pro crypto but this enforcement does seem extreme. I do understand that Microsoft is just following the sanctions.
  - cmeacham98 4y ago
    This is disingenuous. It's like responding to someone arguing for gun control with "all the shooters drank water, should we ban that?". We can argue about the legit/legal uses of Tornado Cash and whether it deserves to be sanctioned - but do so in good faith rather than pretending like it is equivalent to a general purpose tool like Microsoft Windows.
    - break_the_bank 4y ago
      The tweet is very low information for me to comment. I can't tell whether these people contributed to Tornado cash before/after the sanctions were in place. I think a fairer analogy would be, some devs contributed to signal, signal or a derivative of it got used by North Korea/Terrorist/current enemy of choice of the political class. Do we go around and delete the developers GitHub accounts? Having never used tornado.cash or much of crypto (apart from making some money doing spot trades) I can't comment on what the good use cases are. Here's a sample thread of Vitalik claiming to use Tornado.cash to donate to people in Ukraine https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/1556925602233569280 https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/155692560223356928.... I can find some other threads like this on Twitter. This is just another case of Government choosing "security" over privacy and should be scary to folks on HN than be cheered upon. As a side, I am not sure whether Tornado.cash was marketed specifically for "bad" use cases. In the example below I'd support the DoJ in fining & imprisoning a software engineer for his visit to Pyongyang https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-citizen-who-conspired-assist-north-korea-evading-sanctions-sentenced-over-five-years-and https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/us-citizen-who-conspired-assi...
- barnabee 4y ago
  It's noone's responsibility not to make things that are helpful to criminals.
- egorfine 4y ago
  I know right! Just like the browser you are using to post this comment.
  - darkcha0s 4y ago
    That's a false equivalence and you know it. A browser and a coin mixer have 2 very different core audiences, aiming to do very different things. I don't know anyone who has legitimate uses for a coin mixer other than laundering/covering their tracks.
    - egorfine 4y ago
      > I don't know anyone who has legitimate uses for a coin mixer other than laundering/covering their tracks. Thank you for writing "I don't know anyone" instead of a more typical "no one ever".
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
shkkmo 4y ago
AFAIK, it is indeed just the three creator accounts that got suspended.

syzygyhack 4y ago

Your vitriol against Tornado is misplaced, though not surprising given the general ignorance regarding the blockchain industry on HN.

bilekas 4y ago
I don't have particular vitriol against Tornado itself, they do offer compliance tool and seem to have just been an eventual outcome in crypto. I do however have an issue with the incredibly high rate of money laundering etc that flows through crypto. Particularly so with Tornado cash. It's the 'go-to' for easy money laundering. And no that's not a 'general ignorance' it's just a bi-product of having decentralized systems, it's not for me. That doesn't mean people are ignorant of it. Edit: It really irks me this "oh you just don't get it" from some people. It's unproductive and from my own experience, incorrect. They give crypto supporters a bad name.
- syzygyhack 4y ago
  > I do however have an issue with the incredibly high rate of money laundering etc that flows through crypto. Incredibly high relative to what exactly? The total exchange volume of the cryptocurrency industry? Can you show some figures to back that assertion? OR are you talking relative to the global economy? In that case, it's not even a drop in the bucket. Clearly the Tornado Cash team should have simply started a bank instead, then they would only need pay a fine and carry on.
  - bilekas 4y ago
    Incredibly high rate of money laundering in relation to the entire flow of cyrpto. You should know comparing traditional fiat against crypto doesn't make sense.. But I guess I'm the one who's ignorant. There is a good paper overviewing a lot here : https://www.unive.it/pag/fileadmin/user_upload/dipartimenti/economia/doc-eng/eudifin/wp/WP10.pdf https://www.unive.it/pag/fileadmin/user_upload/dipartimenti/... It's more of an essay but all all stats are referenced. Also another good read : https://ciphertrace.com/q3-2018-cryptocurrency-anti-money-laundering-report/ https://ciphertrace.com/q3-2018-cryptocurrency-anti-money-la... You simply can't argue that money laundering isn't rampant on cypto currencies. Also just another clarification from your earlier comment : > Your vitriol against Tornado is misplaced, though not surprising given the general ignorance regarding the blockchain industry on HN. Blockchain != Crypto