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I was surprised with the lukewarm reception parinfer (which ties indentation with parens, in an automated way, and is compatible with paredit actions) had on th

I was surprised with the lukewarm reception parinfer (which ties indentation with parens, in an automated way, and is compatible with paredit actions) had on the lisp world. I found it invaluable, especially for newcomers. It completely takes out parens-as-a-risk out of the question, effectively turning lisps into formally indentation-based languages, a la python (which is to some extent how everybody reads lisp).

mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
I haven't looked at parinfer, but in general, in the Lisp community parentheses aren't really viewed as a problem to be solved. It's just a quirk of the language that requires a a few simple methods to deal with, and then it becomes completely natural, even seen as elegant. With things like BARF/SLURP-SEXP, to move expressions in and out of their parentheses, KILL-SEXP to delete a sexp to the buffer, adding a numeric prefix to open paren to wrap n expressions in parentheses, and ofc NEXT/PREV-SEXP. The language becomes a joy to edit, because everything conforms to this syntax you can do pretty much everything you want with this small handful of commands(all provided by paredit). As I mentioned in another comment, there is essentially a grieving process as a newly enlightened lisper comes to terms with the fact that other languages haven't caught on to this clearly(to the lisper) perfect and superior notation. So probably parinfer is solving a problem that most Lisp programmers aren't looking to solve. That would be my guess anyway. All this is not to pass judgement on your for finding it helpful, and I certainly agree that having more tools for beginners to get used to editing S-expressions is helpful.
- harperlee 4y ago
  > So probably parinfer is solving a problem that most Lisp programmers aren't looking to solve. That would be my guess anyway. It mainly helps adoption, so in a way you are right, it’s not a problem for current users… but it is a problem for industry (as much as I deplore the reality that such a superficial familiarity bump detracts so many people).

mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago

I haven't looked at parinfer, but in general, in the Lisp community parentheses aren't really viewed as a problem to be solved. It's just a quirk of the language that requires a a few simple methods to deal with, and then it becomes completely natural, even seen as elegant. With things like BARF/SLURP-SEXP, to move expressions in and out of their parentheses, KILL-SEXP to delete a sexp to the buffer, adding a numeric prefix to open paren to wrap n expressions in parentheses, and ofc NEXT/PREV-SEXP. The language becomes a joy to edit, because everything conforms to this syntax you can do pretty much everything you want with this small handful of commands(all provided by paredit). As I mentioned in another comment, there is essentially a grieving process as a newly enlightened lisper comes to terms with the fact that other languages haven't caught on to this clearly(to the lisper) perfect and superior notation. So probably parinfer is solving a problem that most Lisp programmers aren't looking to solve. That would be my guess anyway. All this is not to pass judgement on your for finding it helpful, and I certainly agree that having more tools for beginners to get used to editing S-expressions is helpful.

harperlee 4y ago
> So probably parinfer is solving a problem that most Lisp programmers aren't looking to solve. That would be my guess anyway. It mainly helps adoption, so in a way you are right, it’s not a problem for current users… but it is a problem for industry (as much as I deplore the reality that such a superficial familiarity bump detracts so many people).