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What I don't like about framework notebooks is that they seem to be mostly interested in speed, which is why they seemed to choose these P-series CPUs. With a n

What I don't like about framework notebooks is that they seem to be mostly interested in speed, which is why they seemed to choose these P-series CPUs. With a notebook, I'm much more interested in energy consumption (how long can I work off grid), emissions like fan noise and the like. Why no U-series CPUs?

kcb 4y ago
Restricting TDP is generally an option on laptops if you really wanted to. Not sure if Framework provides any out of the box TDP switching but software like ThrottleStop can do it.
- R0b0t1 4y ago
  Yeah. I tried locking some of my older CPUs to, say, 700MHz. Still entirely usable unless I started compiling something, say. Issue is Intel tries to race to halt which demonstrably saves more power on average. The power consumption of your chip probably is some intrinsic quality related to how the package and die are set up.
- lhl 4y ago
  Also on Linux most distros have thermald installed and you can change the config to limit the max temperature to defacto throttle power usage. Alternatively, you can modify the RAPL limits to cap power usage directly to taste: https://community.frame.work/t/thermal-management-on-linux-with-rapl-limits/17416 https://community.frame.work/t/thermal-management-on-linux-w...
nrp 4y ago
The U and P series parts are actually the same dies on 12th Gen, but binned. If you set the Power Mode to Best Power Efficiency on Windows or the equivalent power limiting in Linux, you can make a P behave pretty similarly to what a U would (with the Intel DTT settings we used).
- wtallis 4y ago
  Isn't it the H and P series that use the same die, while the U series is a much smaller die (2 instead of 6 P cores)?
  - nrp 4y ago
    You are correct, I misremembered this. The packages are pin compatible, but there are different 2+8 and 6+8 dies this generation. It was 11th Gen where the 15W and 28W were the same die.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
zionic 4y ago
Well then you are minority. I want a portable desktop, speed I can bring with me without lugging my 35lb liquid cooler setup with its 4x140mm radiator. I want something compact and sexy but insanely fast when I “dock” it
- pdpi 4y ago
  The success of the thin-and-light segment, and the MacBook Air in particular, suggests that OP is very much in the majority.
  - hnra 4y ago
    Thin-and-light would mean smaller battery and harder to cool though? It seems consumers are just uninformed and instead buying the sleekest option.
    - solar-ice 4y ago
      I've got a sleek option because lugging around a brick is a miserable experience. There's a qualitative difference between the XPS 13 that I can whip out on the train, and a desktop replacement laptop that is heavy and big enough to be a bother and barely fits in my backpack. Power isn't really an issue - I'm never far from an outlet, and I could carry an external battery in a backpack pocket if it really bothered me.
  - postalrat 4y ago
    I think a lot of the macbook air's popularity comes from it being the cheapest macbook. Some people want an apple and dont have 2-3k to spend on a laptop.
    - diffeomorphism 4y ago
      The term "ultrabook" heavily disagrees with that.
  - Nursie 4y ago
    The M1 Air is a wonder as far as I'm concerned. It's very thin and light, fanless, yet I can happily do java dev on it all day and I'm not lacking in capability or waiting around for build and test runs. It rocks.
jvanderbot 4y ago
I'd like to point out that Intel allows you to tune the cores for whatever profile you want. Sure, it's not "same performance, less noise", but you can get something like an 80/20 (80% performance, 20% noise) by just scaling back the core frequencies a little. I tune my intel machine down to 8x3.2 Ghz, and can run without fans (on small form factor PC), but sometimes want the full 4+Ghz, but it's loud. This can be done application-specific, so when you launch a big game or something, it'll spin cores up to max frequency, for example.
- stewbrew 4y ago
  Could you please be more specific? Are you talking about Windows or Linux? Do you mind giving some references for how to scale core frequencies application-wise? Thanks.
  - jvanderbot 4y ago
    It's windows only, sadly. https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/download/17881/intel-extreme-tuning-utility-intel-xtu.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/download/17881/intel... There's a very simple menu system to scale up and down the core frequencies, and to select application execution profiles. It comes with internal temp and voltage monitors, and built-in stress tests to benchmark. My main tips are to remove thermal boost, remove core scaling (the heterogeneous frequencies it assigns when only a few cores are active vs all), and to cap all cores to 3-4Ghz, depending on the quality of your passive cooling. No bios adjustments needed, no restarts required, and built-in watchdog to revert if things go poorly. Really nice. Recent, huge bug though: On some platforms, it requires disabling visualization, which limits use of the WSL. That had better be fixed ASAP, it's a big deal.

kcb 4y ago

Restricting TDP is generally an option on laptops if you really wanted to. Not sure if Framework provides any out of the box TDP switching but software like ThrottleStop can do it.

R0b0t1 4y ago
Yeah. I tried locking some of my older CPUs to, say, 700MHz. Still entirely usable unless I started compiling something, say. Issue is Intel tries to race to halt which demonstrably saves more power on average. The power consumption of your chip probably is some intrinsic quality related to how the package and die are set up.
lhl 4y ago
Also on Linux most distros have thermald installed and you can change the config to limit the max temperature to defacto throttle power usage. Alternatively, you can modify the RAPL limits to cap power usage directly to taste: https://community.frame.work/t/thermal-management-on-linux-with-rapl-limits/17416 https://community.frame.work/t/thermal-management-on-linux-w...

nrp 4y ago

The U and P series parts are actually the same dies on 12th Gen, but binned. If you set the Power Mode to Best Power Efficiency on Windows or the equivalent power limiting in Linux, you can make a P behave pretty similarly to what a U would (with the Intel DTT settings we used).

wtallis 4y ago
Isn't it the H and P series that use the same die, while the U series is a much smaller die (2 instead of 6 P cores)?
- nrp 4y ago
  You are correct, I misremembered this. The packages are pin compatible, but there are different 2+8 and 6+8 dies this generation. It was 11th Gen where the 15W and 28W were the same die.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

zionic 4y ago

Well then you are minority. I want a portable desktop, speed I can bring with me without lugging my 35lb liquid cooler setup with its 4x140mm radiator. I want something compact and sexy but insanely fast when I “dock” it

pdpi 4y ago
The success of the thin-and-light segment, and the MacBook Air in particular, suggests that OP is very much in the majority.
- hnra 4y ago
  Thin-and-light would mean smaller battery and harder to cool though? It seems consumers are just uninformed and instead buying the sleekest option.
  - solar-ice 4y ago
    I've got a sleek option because lugging around a brick is a miserable experience. There's a qualitative difference between the XPS 13 that I can whip out on the train, and a desktop replacement laptop that is heavy and big enough to be a bother and barely fits in my backpack. Power isn't really an issue - I'm never far from an outlet, and I could carry an external battery in a backpack pocket if it really bothered me.
- postalrat 4y ago
  I think a lot of the macbook air's popularity comes from it being the cheapest macbook. Some people want an apple and dont have 2-3k to spend on a laptop.
  - diffeomorphism 4y ago
    The term "ultrabook" heavily disagrees with that.
- Nursie 4y ago
  The M1 Air is a wonder as far as I'm concerned. It's very thin and light, fanless, yet I can happily do java dev on it all day and I'm not lacking in capability or waiting around for build and test runs. It rocks.

jvanderbot 4y ago

I'd like to point out that Intel allows you to tune the cores for whatever profile you want. Sure, it's not "same performance, less noise", but you can get something like an 80/20 (80% performance, 20% noise) by just scaling back the core frequencies a little. I tune my intel machine down to 8x3.2 Ghz, and can run without fans (on small form factor PC), but sometimes want the full 4+Ghz, but it's loud. This can be done application-specific, so when you launch a big game or something, it'll spin cores up to max frequency, for example.

stewbrew 4y ago
Could you please be more specific? Are you talking about Windows or Linux? Do you mind giving some references for how to scale core frequencies application-wise? Thanks.
- jvanderbot 4y ago
  It's windows only, sadly. https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/download/17881/intel-extreme-tuning-utility-intel-xtu.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/download/17881/intel... There's a very simple menu system to scale up and down the core frequencies, and to select application execution profiles. It comes with internal temp and voltage monitors, and built-in stress tests to benchmark. My main tips are to remove thermal boost, remove core scaling (the heterogeneous frequencies it assigns when only a few cores are active vs all), and to cap all cores to 3-4Ghz, depending on the quality of your passive cooling. No bios adjustments needed, no restarts required, and built-in watchdog to revert if things go poorly. Really nice. Recent, huge bug though: On some platforms, it requires disabling visualization, which limits use of the WSL. That had better be fixed ASAP, it's a big deal.