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FWIW Gladwell's comments really resonate with me. I do think it's okay if you decide you don't want anything out of your job besides a paycheck, and are happy t

by alecbz 4y ago

FWIW Gladwell's comments really resonate with me. I do think it's okay if you decide you don't want anything out of your job besides a paycheck, and are happy to find meaning, belonging, etc. in other parts of your life. But for my own life, I want more of those things from my job.

nfhshy68 4y ago
I think that's fine as long as you're not holding me hostage.
- alecbz 4y ago
  I don't think anyone's holding anyone hostage, but it is true that these kinds of things require a relatively consistent corporate culture, because it's fundamentally about how you're relating to the other people you're working with. Showing up to an empty office doesn't really do anything, the point is that the office is where the other people you're working with also are. I don't think all companies need to operate in one particular way, but getting the sense of belonging and meaning out of work some people want I think does generally require the team/org/company they're at to have that culture.
  - dmitrygr 4y ago
    that is what the parent of your post was referring to. You want office fine? You want it nonempty? You want ME there too, by force? now you're holding me hostage
    - alecbz 4y ago
      While there might be some benefits of an office just as a separate physical space for doing work, I think the vast majority of benefit people are referring to when talking about “the office” is being physically with the people they’re working with. “Force” doesn’t seem like the right model here, any more than any other aspect of requiring to work for a living counts as force. (Which you might think it does, but singling out just office/remote as the part that’s by force doesn’t seem like it makes sense.)
  - a_techwriter_00 4y ago
    Working from a corporate office is entirely someone holding me hostage. I hate it like I hate death. It's my sincere hope that Malcolm continues his slide into irrelevancy.
    - alecbz 4y ago
      “Hostage” doesn’t seem like the right model there, any more than being forced to work at all for a living counts as being held hostage.
      - a_techwriter_00 4y ago
        Well, sure, there are philosophical problems with having to work at all for a living -- but work is required by nature. If one sits and does nothing, one starves to death. There's nothing in the natural order that says I must starve if I don't report to a particular building every day and sit at a particular desk when the tools for me to perform the same labor at a place of my own choosing exist. Forcing me to do so in order to maintain an employment contract is coercion, plain and simple, and the sooner society destroys that norm the better.
swatcoder 4y ago
I think you can work remotely or privately and still get quite many things more from your work than a paycheck? Even including meaning, belonging, etc? While there may be many things that you got from a shared workspace, there are only a few of them that aren’t also available remotely. You probably don’t need to be caricaturing other people’s experience to justify your own. I imagine you’d still be fine to do you without making it suggest anything in particular about the rest of us.
- alecbz 4y ago
  I only have a couple of years of data for remote/semi-remote work, but personally I’ve found physical presence is an important factor in how connected I feel to others. And how connected I feel to others definitely has a strong effect on how much meaning I find in what I’m working on (I have more than a few years of data for that.) > You probably don’t need to be caricaturing other people’s experience to justify your own. I don’t follow — whose experiences am I caricaturing? I meant his comments resonate with my own experience of working remotely.
dmitrygr 4y ago
You REALLY may want to look into this before it is too late. This is what happens when your work is your identity: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/03/on-average-older-adults-spend-over-half-their-waking-hours-alone/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/03/on-average-... Get some hobbies, maybe a pet?
- alecbz 4y ago
  > This is what happens when your work is your identity Sorry, is that just your commentary, or is there something in that article linking work as identity to loneliness? I agree that using work, or any other one thing as your sole source of identity isn’t healthy. I don’t see how that’s incompatible with finding meaning and belonging from work, any more than it’d be incompatible with finding meaning and belonging in anything else. > Get some hobbies, maybe a pet? I have a pet. I have some hobbies, though generally I find that I and others doing the hobby don’t have enough time to devote to it to really develop deep connection from it. Part of its also maybe just the things I’m interested (or not interested) in. I’d like to have more hobbies though, and generally more extra-work life activities. But that doesn’t replace my desire for work to also be meaningful.
cudgy 4y ago
As the venerable Bob Dylan sang, “The times they are a changin’”. The genie is out of the bottle and the benefits of the wfh genie are undeniably advantageous to many people. The vast majority of people seek meaning and belonging within their personal lives through religion, philosophy, family, and deep friendships. Of all these factors, deep friendships are typically available through the workplace, but I’ve found most work friendships to be shallow and dominated by the shared connection to the workplace. Why spend 20-40 hours per month commuting for that? Imagine all the deep friendships that could be cultivated with that much time every month?

by alecbz 4y ago

nfhshy68 4y ago

I think that's fine as long as you're not holding me hostage.

alecbz 4y ago
I don't think anyone's holding anyone hostage, but it is true that these kinds of things require a relatively consistent corporate culture, because it's fundamentally about how you're relating to the other people you're working with. Showing up to an empty office doesn't really do anything, the point is that the office is where the other people you're working with also are. I don't think all companies need to operate in one particular way, but getting the sense of belonging and meaning out of work some people want I think does generally require the team/org/company they're at to have that culture.
- dmitrygr 4y ago
  that is what the parent of your post was referring to. You want office fine? You want it nonempty? You want ME there too, by force? now you're holding me hostage
  - alecbz 4y ago
    While there might be some benefits of an office just as a separate physical space for doing work, I think the vast majority of benefit people are referring to when talking about “the office” is being physically with the people they’re working with. “Force” doesn’t seem like the right model here, any more than any other aspect of requiring to work for a living counts as force. (Which you might think it does, but singling out just office/remote as the part that’s by force doesn’t seem like it makes sense.)
- a_techwriter_00 4y ago
  Working from a corporate office is entirely someone holding me hostage. I hate it like I hate death. It's my sincere hope that Malcolm continues his slide into irrelevancy.
  - alecbz 4y ago
    “Hostage” doesn’t seem like the right model there, any more than being forced to work at all for a living counts as being held hostage.
    - a_techwriter_00 4y ago
      Well, sure, there are philosophical problems with having to work at all for a living -- but work is required by nature. If one sits and does nothing, one starves to death. There's nothing in the natural order that says I must starve if I don't report to a particular building every day and sit at a particular desk when the tools for me to perform the same labor at a place of my own choosing exist. Forcing me to do so in order to maintain an employment contract is coercion, plain and simple, and the sooner society destroys that norm the better.

swatcoder 4y ago

I think you can work remotely or privately and still get quite many things more from your work than a paycheck? Even including meaning, belonging, etc? While there may be many things that you got from a shared workspace, there are only a few of them that aren’t also available remotely. You probably don’t need to be caricaturing other people’s experience to justify your own. I imagine you’d still be fine to do you without making it suggest anything in particular about the rest of us.

alecbz 4y ago
I only have a couple of years of data for remote/semi-remote work, but personally I’ve found physical presence is an important factor in how connected I feel to others. And how connected I feel to others definitely has a strong effect on how much meaning I find in what I’m working on (I have more than a few years of data for that.) > You probably don’t need to be caricaturing other people’s experience to justify your own. I don’t follow — whose experiences am I caricaturing? I meant his comments resonate with my own experience of working remotely.

dmitrygr 4y ago

You REALLY may want to look into this before it is too late. This is what happens when your work is your identity: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/03/on-average-older-adults-spend-over-half-their-waking-hours-alone/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/03/on-average-... Get some hobbies, maybe a pet?

alecbz 4y ago
> This is what happens when your work is your identity Sorry, is that just your commentary, or is there something in that article linking work as identity to loneliness? I agree that using work, or any other one thing as your sole source of identity isn’t healthy. I don’t see how that’s incompatible with finding meaning and belonging from work, any more than it’d be incompatible with finding meaning and belonging in anything else. > Get some hobbies, maybe a pet? I have a pet. I have some hobbies, though generally I find that I and others doing the hobby don’t have enough time to devote to it to really develop deep connection from it. Part of its also maybe just the things I’m interested (or not interested) in. I’d like to have more hobbies though, and generally more extra-work life activities. But that doesn’t replace my desire for work to also be meaningful.

cudgy 4y ago

As the venerable Bob Dylan sang, “The times they are a changin’”. The genie is out of the bottle and the benefits of the wfh genie are undeniably advantageous to many people. The vast majority of people seek meaning and belonging within their personal lives through religion, philosophy, family, and deep friendships. Of all these factors, deep friendships are typically available through the workplace, but I’ve found most work friendships to be shallow and dominated by the shared connection to the workplace. Why spend 20-40 hours per month commuting for that? Imagine all the deep friendships that could be cultivated with that much time every month?