5 ms·

>If you're really trying to argue that, you should argue that tradfi banks should be unregulated. Precisely, I do think tradfi banks should be unregulated, wit

>If you're really trying to argue that, you should argue that tradfi banks should be unregulated. Precisely, I do think tradfi banks should be unregulated, with full knowledge that will enable more efficient "money laundering" for some (of course for many of the consolidated powers that be that suck up power when the small guys are blocked, it's no different at all) >It makes no sense to say that some organizations are behaving badly, so we should give up trying to regulate all organizations. Blocking all users of Tornado Cash because of some organizations that behave badly is exactly the kind of logic you're impugning with your statement here. We shouldn't give up on all Tornado Cash transactions because some are bad. You contradict yourself.

lern_too_spel 4y ago
> You contradict yourself. That's a strange interpretation of my words. TornadoCash allows DPRK to steal from Americans and use that money. We shouldn't throw our hands up in the air and say there is nothing we can do about it. We should instead prevent anybody from transacting with funds laundered through TornadoCash via regulation. This removes DPRK's profit and affects normal people by some amount approximating 0.
- notch656a 4y ago
  This won't remove DPRK's profit and the amount of additional suffering DPRK is going to feel is a lot closer to "zero" than the American who uses Tornado Cash to firewall their hot wallet from their cold wallet.
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago
    > This won't remove DPRK's profit If nobody will accept their laundered coins, how do they profit? > The American who uses Tornado Cash to firewall their hot wallet from their cold wallet. That provides no benefit to society and causes plenty of harms. Working as intended.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      >If nobody will accept their laundered coins, how do they profit? I don't think there's any evidence sanctioning Tornado Cash closes off laundering options for DPRK. Washing through privacy coins come to mind as an alternative. Very easy for DPRK's government mechanism to learn while being much more a hassle for the average American who barely has time after work/kids/training etc. >That provides no benefit to society and causes plenty of harms. Working as intended. Privacy definitely provides benefit to society, including not letting everyone know how much money you have to spend in your cold wallet every time you spend from your hot wallet. In fact I'd argue more violence could ensue if criminals could easily discover who had large cold wallets through lack of privacy, as many would choose to simply go on targetted knee-cap breaking operations until the key is given up.
      - lern_too_spel 4y ago
        > I don't think there's any evidence sanctioning Tornado Cash closes off laundering options for DPRK Those other methods can be shut off too. That isn't an argument to leave known laundering options available. > Privacy definitely provides benefit to society, including not letting everyone know how much money you have to spend in your cold wallet every time you spend from your hot wallet. Don't use technologies that have no advantages and only disadvantages. When I spend with my credit card, the merchant doesn't know how much money I have, and my transaction goes through nearly instantly with negligible energy usage.
        notch656a 4y ago
        >Those other methods can be shut off too. That isn't an argument to leave known laundering options available. But that wasn't the argument you made. Now you're moving the goal posts. Sanctioning Tornado cash doesn't remove DPRKs profits as you claimed. I also doubt all methods can be shut off, or that it makes sense to cut off all "US Persons" just because DPRK uses it the way we don't like. >Don't use technologies that have no advantages and only disadvantages. When I spend with my credit card, the merchant doesn't know how much money I have, and my transaction goes through nearly instantly with negligible energy usage. When I use my credit card to buy say metal bullion online, I'm charged a huge markup if I pay with credit card. There are times when I don't want to pay the credit card markup and things like cash aren't always easily usable online. I don't even like spending crypto but I've paid for bullion with crypto online merely because it happened to be the lowest fee option for me with fast clearing. You don't know that for everyone crypto always has no advantages in their options.

lern_too_spel 4y ago

> You contradict yourself. That's a strange interpretation of my words. TornadoCash allows DPRK to steal from Americans and use that money. We shouldn't throw our hands up in the air and say there is nothing we can do about it. We should instead prevent anybody from transacting with funds laundered through TornadoCash via regulation. This removes DPRK's profit and affects normal people by some amount approximating 0.

notch656a 4y ago
This won't remove DPRK's profit and the amount of additional suffering DPRK is going to feel is a lot closer to "zero" than the American who uses Tornado Cash to firewall their hot wallet from their cold wallet.
- lern_too_spel 4y ago
  > This won't remove DPRK's profit If nobody will accept their laundered coins, how do they profit? > The American who uses Tornado Cash to firewall their hot wallet from their cold wallet. That provides no benefit to society and causes plenty of harms. Working as intended.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    >If nobody will accept their laundered coins, how do they profit? I don't think there's any evidence sanctioning Tornado Cash closes off laundering options for DPRK. Washing through privacy coins come to mind as an alternative. Very easy for DPRK's government mechanism to learn while being much more a hassle for the average American who barely has time after work/kids/training etc. >That provides no benefit to society and causes plenty of harms. Working as intended. Privacy definitely provides benefit to society, including not letting everyone know how much money you have to spend in your cold wallet every time you spend from your hot wallet. In fact I'd argue more violence could ensue if criminals could easily discover who had large cold wallets through lack of privacy, as many would choose to simply go on targetted knee-cap breaking operations until the key is given up.
    - lern_too_spel 4y ago
      > I don't think there's any evidence sanctioning Tornado Cash closes off laundering options for DPRK Those other methods can be shut off too. That isn't an argument to leave known laundering options available. > Privacy definitely provides benefit to society, including not letting everyone know how much money you have to spend in your cold wallet every time you spend from your hot wallet. Don't use technologies that have no advantages and only disadvantages. When I spend with my credit card, the merchant doesn't know how much money I have, and my transaction goes through nearly instantly with negligible energy usage.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        >Those other methods can be shut off too. That isn't an argument to leave known laundering options available. But that wasn't the argument you made. Now you're moving the goal posts. Sanctioning Tornado cash doesn't remove DPRKs profits as you claimed. I also doubt all methods can be shut off, or that it makes sense to cut off all "US Persons" just because DPRK uses it the way we don't like. >Don't use technologies that have no advantages and only disadvantages. When I spend with my credit card, the merchant doesn't know how much money I have, and my transaction goes through nearly instantly with negligible energy usage. When I use my credit card to buy say metal bullion online, I'm charged a huge markup if I pay with credit card. There are times when I don't want to pay the credit card markup and things like cash aren't always easily usable online. I don't even like spending crypto but I've paid for bullion with crypto online merely because it happened to be the lowest fee option for me with fast clearing. You don't know that for everyone crypto always has no advantages in their options.