6 ms·

Did you know in most parts of the world, credit cards aren't that popular? From what I've seen, in Latin America and much of the EU debit or even cash is the d

Did you know in most parts of the world, credit cards aren't that popular? From what I've seen, in Latin America and much of the EU debit or even cash is the default. Even in the UK, there are no weird, arbitrary reward points programs like in the US - it's standardized. In my experience only the US and Canada have these crazy credit card deals and programs. Which is good for me I guess, I get my points as I can still use my Visa credit card around the world. But man, unless you do the research and understand your card, credit cards can really be shady (especially exploitative for those with low financial understanding) and I do think we should get rid of them.

nyokodo 4y ago
> credit cards can really be shady (especially exploitative for those with low financial understanding) and I do think we should get rid of them. Or, promote better financial literacy.
- nilespotter 4y ago
  I like your optimism. It's not clear to me your average American and his public education are capable of understanding them, regardless of what financial literacy we may or may not be able to inculcate.
  - nyokodo 4y ago
    > It's not clear to me your average American and his public education are capable of understanding them Basic financial literacy sufficient to manage credit is well within the abilities of those with average intelligence. If the Public Schools are unable to teach that then we should reform them. It's not like credit cards are the only financial pitfall that people desperately need help to avoid.
- Nextgrid 4y ago
  Just because a specific skill can help you avoid the pitfalls doesn't mean those pitfalls should be kept around. Just because OSHA and health & safety rules exist doesn't mean we intentionally make power tools and machines have blunt electrified edges to cut/electrocute anyone who isn't "literate" enough and accidentally touches the thing. I'm personally tired of everything in the world being intentionally hostile.
  - nyokodo 4y ago
    > Just because OSHA and health & safety rules exist doesn't mean we intentionally make power tools and machines have blunt electrified edges to cut/electrocute anyone who isn't "literate" enough and accidentally touches the thing. The OP called for the abolition of credit cards, whereas you're describing the regulation of power tools which is all well and good albeit inadequate as people still cut their fingers off and break things all the time with power tools. Power tools are still around and no one is calling for them to be abolished, although there are efforts to train people in power tool safety. People need financial safety training too, and not just for credit cards.
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      Power tools cut off limbs and cause accidents because those tools are designed to cut hard materials that are much harder than human flesh. You could technically make a completely safe angle grinder by completely covering the cutting wheel but that would make it pretty useless. On the other hand, credit cards' pitfalls are intentional rules that have no other purpose other than to explicitly be "sharp" and "cut" careless people.
      - nyokodo 4y ago
        > On the other hand, credit cards' pitfalls are intentional rules that have no other purpose other than to explicitly be "sharp" and "cut" careless people. You already mentioned one way to ameliorate this that worked for power tools, regulation, that doesn't involve abolishing them. That might work, but far better is to reduce the number of careless people through education.
        Nextgrid 4y ago
        What makes credit cards "credit cards" is not some technical difference but the fee schedule and repayment terms, which are currently intentionally obtuse and "sharp" so that people who get "cut" subsidize perks for those who know how to play the system to their advantage. If you regulate those away it will just become the equivalent of a debit card with an overdraft attached, essentially abolishing them. > far better is to reduce the number of careless people through education. Maybe. If there's no safer way to achieve the task at hand (like with power tools - the tool is inherently designed to cut things and will cut limbs if misused), sure. But when the danger is intentionally introduced into the system with no other purpose than to subsidize perks for the well-off, is it worth keeping? Why not also extrapolate this and make fraud and scamming legal and instead blame victims for their lack of care and education?
maccard 4y ago
> Even in the UK, there are no weird, arbitrary reward points programs like in the US - it's standardized. That's not true. Amex have a full family of rewards cards available. There's a bunch [0] of non-amex cards available too. [0] https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/best-credit-card-rewards/#supermarket https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/best-credit-c...
- avianlyric 4y ago
  Only Amex can do this, because they’re both a card network, and card issuer. Allowing them to charge higher interchange fees to merchants than Mastercard or Visa are allowed to in the EU.
  - pornel 4y ago
    And the result is that Amex here is rarely accepted, except of some high-margin and tourism-oriented businesses.
    - maccard 4y ago
      I use an amex as my daily card. In the last 30 days I have needed to fall back to my MasterCard to pay my home insurance bill and for the contactless bus service in Edinburgh. All my other bills - coffee out, food shopping, restaurants, PAYG gym, dry cleaning, flight and train, Uber, DIY stores, bars, fuel station, local home dexor/gift shop, even my doggy daycare all accept amex.
  - maccard 4y ago
    Have you any source on the fact that they charge more because of this? Interchange fees are capped in the EU, and the amex fees document based on my reading of it (it's hard to grok) seems in line with the visa one. Also, from my link it's not just amex. Most of the supermarkets have MasterCard rewards cards, and a few of the "new" "banks" have rewards/time limited rewards (e.g. Chase, curve, revolut). So no, it's not only amex, and yes these schemes exist in the UK.
antihero 4y ago
In the UK we have cashback for some debit, airmiles, and the various types of cards Amex do.
avianlyric 4y ago
The EU strictly limits the interchange fees that card networks and banks can charge. So it’s not possible to offer valuable (and profitable)reward programs in the EU, because banks simply can’t earn enough money on transactions fees to provide those rewards. In the US, interchange is up to 10x higher than the EU. And interchange + reward programs act as a form of regressive tax where people with low credit scores have to pay the full cost of those high interchange fees. Whereas high value customers with good credit scores (who are normally the most wealthy in society) get a rebate on those interchange fees in the form of rewards.
browningstreet 4y ago
I was just in IT, HU and DE and used Apple Pay for 99% of all transactions, and it was normal.

nyokodo 4y ago

> credit cards can really be shady (especially exploitative for those with low financial understanding) and I do think we should get rid of them. Or, promote better financial literacy.

nilespotter 4y ago
I like your optimism. It's not clear to me your average American and his public education are capable of understanding them, regardless of what financial literacy we may or may not be able to inculcate.
- nyokodo 4y ago
  > It's not clear to me your average American and his public education are capable of understanding them Basic financial literacy sufficient to manage credit is well within the abilities of those with average intelligence. If the Public Schools are unable to teach that then we should reform them. It's not like credit cards are the only financial pitfall that people desperately need help to avoid.
Nextgrid 4y ago
Just because a specific skill can help you avoid the pitfalls doesn't mean those pitfalls should be kept around. Just because OSHA and health & safety rules exist doesn't mean we intentionally make power tools and machines have blunt electrified edges to cut/electrocute anyone who isn't "literate" enough and accidentally touches the thing. I'm personally tired of everything in the world being intentionally hostile.
- nyokodo 4y ago
  > Just because OSHA and health & safety rules exist doesn't mean we intentionally make power tools and machines have blunt electrified edges to cut/electrocute anyone who isn't "literate" enough and accidentally touches the thing. The OP called for the abolition of credit cards, whereas you're describing the regulation of power tools which is all well and good albeit inadequate as people still cut their fingers off and break things all the time with power tools. Power tools are still around and no one is calling for them to be abolished, although there are efforts to train people in power tool safety. People need financial safety training too, and not just for credit cards.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    Power tools cut off limbs and cause accidents because those tools are designed to cut hard materials that are much harder than human flesh. You could technically make a completely safe angle grinder by completely covering the cutting wheel but that would make it pretty useless. On the other hand, credit cards' pitfalls are intentional rules that have no other purpose other than to explicitly be "sharp" and "cut" careless people.
    - nyokodo 4y ago
      > On the other hand, credit cards' pitfalls are intentional rules that have no other purpose other than to explicitly be "sharp" and "cut" careless people. You already mentioned one way to ameliorate this that worked for power tools, regulation, that doesn't involve abolishing them. That might work, but far better is to reduce the number of careless people through education.
      - Nextgrid 4y ago
        What makes credit cards "credit cards" is not some technical difference but the fee schedule and repayment terms, which are currently intentionally obtuse and "sharp" so that people who get "cut" subsidize perks for those who know how to play the system to their advantage. If you regulate those away it will just become the equivalent of a debit card with an overdraft attached, essentially abolishing them. > far better is to reduce the number of careless people through education. Maybe. If there's no safer way to achieve the task at hand (like with power tools - the tool is inherently designed to cut things and will cut limbs if misused), sure. But when the danger is intentionally introduced into the system with no other purpose than to subsidize perks for the well-off, is it worth keeping? Why not also extrapolate this and make fraud and scamming legal and instead blame victims for their lack of care and education?

maccard 4y ago

> Even in the UK, there are no weird, arbitrary reward points programs like in the US - it's standardized. That's not true. Amex have a full family of rewards cards available. There's a bunch [0] of non-amex cards available too. [0] https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/best-credit-card-rewards/#supermarket https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/best-credit-c...

avianlyric 4y ago
Only Amex can do this, because they’re both a card network, and card issuer. Allowing them to charge higher interchange fees to merchants than Mastercard or Visa are allowed to in the EU.
- pornel 4y ago
  And the result is that Amex here is rarely accepted, except of some high-margin and tourism-oriented businesses.
  - maccard 4y ago
    I use an amex as my daily card. In the last 30 days I have needed to fall back to my MasterCard to pay my home insurance bill and for the contactless bus service in Edinburgh. All my other bills - coffee out, food shopping, restaurants, PAYG gym, dry cleaning, flight and train, Uber, DIY stores, bars, fuel station, local home dexor/gift shop, even my doggy daycare all accept amex.
- maccard 4y ago
  Have you any source on the fact that they charge more because of this? Interchange fees are capped in the EU, and the amex fees document based on my reading of it (it's hard to grok) seems in line with the visa one. Also, from my link it's not just amex. Most of the supermarkets have MasterCard rewards cards, and a few of the "new" "banks" have rewards/time limited rewards (e.g. Chase, curve, revolut). So no, it's not only amex, and yes these schemes exist in the UK.

antihero 4y ago

In the UK we have cashback for some debit, airmiles, and the various types of cards Amex do.

avianlyric 4y ago

The EU strictly limits the interchange fees that card networks and banks can charge. So it’s not possible to offer valuable (and profitable)reward programs in the EU, because banks simply can’t earn enough money on transactions fees to provide those rewards. In the US, interchange is up to 10x higher than the EU. And interchange + reward programs act as a form of regressive tax where people with low credit scores have to pay the full cost of those high interchange fees. Whereas high value customers with good credit scores (who are normally the most wealthy in society) get a rebate on those interchange fees in the form of rewards.

browningstreet 4y ago

I was just in IT, HU and DE and used Apple Pay for 99% of all transactions, and it was normal.