4 ms·

No good. Money doesn't move instantly, and you need someone to handle disputes. Some reading: https://bam.kalzumeus.com/archive/the-alchemy-of-deposits/ https

No good. Money doesn't move instantly, and you need someone to handle disputes. Some reading: https://bam.kalzumeus.com/archive/the-alchemy-of-deposits/ https://bam.kalzumeus.com/archive/the-alchemy-of-deposits/ https://bam.kalzumeus.com/archive/no-payments-are-final/ https://bam.kalzumeus.com/archive/no-payments-are-final/

falcolas 4y ago
Not counting the myriad regulations that need to be followed the moment you cross country lines.
toomuchtodo 4y ago
> Money doesn't move instantly It will shortly (testing phase is in progress since 2022Q1). FedNow instant payment rails go live next year and payments are required to settle within ~8 seconds. Transaction cost the Fed charges is 5 cents, up to $500k per transaction ($100k while it shakes out initially). (Tangentially, [Transfer]Wise is very compelling for moving value internationally, and is instant in a lot of cases; they also plug into instant transfer rails in local currencies whenever possible) https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.h... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32098635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32098635 (see citations at bottom of comment)
- egypturnash 4y ago
  Oh wow, I just wrote a reply to the parent comment opining that the government should be providing electronic transactions instead of letting a handful of private companies skim a few percent off of every transaction in 75% of the economy. I'm looking forwards to this! (https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow, from your second link, is a description of FedNow that's attempting to explain it with less financial jargon.)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  So the flow would still be: You > Bank/Financial Corp > Fed > Receiving Bank > Destination right? Would banks still be able to hold transactions as pending until they do daily settlement?
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    No, settlement must be immediate (unless fraud, AML, KYC, US sanctions/OFAC, or a similar exception). https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/06/06/2022-11090/collection-of-checks-and-other-items-by-federal-reserve-banks-and-funds-transfers-through-fedwire https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/06/06/2022-11... (control-f “Immediate Funds Availability”)
    - vorpalhex 4y ago
      Ah, I see it. For anyone following along: > The FedNow Service is designed for the end-to-end transfer to be completed in a matter of seconds, as described in the 2020 Notice. This means that the beneficiary's bank would agree, as provided in proposed subpart C, that it will make funds available to the beneficiary immediately after it has accepted the payment order.
alexb_ 4y ago
These are interesting reads - I wish HN had a save feature so I could keep track of them.
- pc86 4y ago
  You don't need HN to save links to a blog.
- hadrien01 4y ago
  I use HN favourites as reminders and read-later list
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  Wallabag/Pocket is what you are after. "Bits About Money" is always worth a read imo. I knew of these ideas but it is both a clear explainer and a good guide to the "why".
alexashka 4y ago
Feel free to address what I've actually typed. You can address the imaginary person who wants to discuss instant money transfers some other time, perhaps.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  > Just make it so anyone with an internet connection can transfer any amount anywhere else, online, without any transaction fees, within seconds. I can only read what you type. You seem to be talking about instant (seconds is instant in finance) money transfers.
  - alexashka 4y ago
    We already have 'instant' transfers, it's called paying with a debit card at a grocery store. Now extend that to the internet, any amount (cap it to under a few thousand if you wish), no transaction fees (I already pay taxes). That'd be fintech, aka using technology to actually improve the finance industry for the people, but that's just me :)
    - ska 4y ago
      > no transaction fees (I already pay taxes). This connection seems ... tenuous. As you note, you already broadly have the ability to do this via debit card for most day-to-day things (with fees, for seller). What can't you do that want to?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - vorpalhex 4y ago
      > We already have 'instant' transfers, it's called paying with a debit card at a grocery store. Actually not instant! Debit transactions can not settle for several hours, and even up to a few days (though usually much faster). Though your bank is typically able to say that they have the available money, settlement may not occur for quite some time.

falcolas 4y ago

Not counting the myriad regulations that need to be followed the moment you cross country lines.

toomuchtodo 4y ago

> Money doesn't move instantly It will shortly (testing phase is in progress since 2022Q1). FedNow instant payment rails go live next year and payments are required to settle within ~8 seconds. Transaction cost the Fed charges is 5 cents, up to $500k per transaction ($100k while it shakes out initially). (Tangentially, [Transfer]Wise is very compelling for moving value internationally, and is instant in a lot of cases; they also plug into instant transfer rails in local currencies whenever possible) https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.h... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32098635 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32098635 (see citations at bottom of comment)

egypturnash 4y ago
Oh wow, I just wrote a reply to the parent comment opining that the government should be providing electronic transactions instead of letting a handful of private companies skim a few percent off of every transaction in 75% of the economy. I'm looking forwards to this! (https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow https://www.moderntreasury.com/learn/what-is-fednow, from your second link, is a description of FedNow that's attempting to explain it with less financial jargon.)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
vorpalhex 4y ago
So the flow would still be: You > Bank/Financial Corp > Fed > Receiving Bank > Destination right? Would banks still be able to hold transactions as pending until they do daily settlement?
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  No, settlement must be immediate (unless fraud, AML, KYC, US sanctions/OFAC, or a similar exception). https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/06/06/2022-11090/collection-of-checks-and-other-items-by-federal-reserve-banks-and-funds-transfers-through-fedwire https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/06/06/2022-11... (control-f “Immediate Funds Availability”)
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    Ah, I see it. For anyone following along: > The FedNow Service is designed for the end-to-end transfer to be completed in a matter of seconds, as described in the 2020 Notice. This means that the beneficiary's bank would agree, as provided in proposed subpart C, that it will make funds available to the beneficiary immediately after it has accepted the payment order.

alexb_ 4y ago

These are interesting reads - I wish HN had a save feature so I could keep track of them.

pc86 4y ago
You don't need HN to save links to a blog.
hadrien01 4y ago
I use HN favourites as reminders and read-later list
vorpalhex 4y ago
Wallabag/Pocket is what you are after. "Bits About Money" is always worth a read imo. I knew of these ideas but it is both a clear explainer and a good guide to the "why".

alexashka 4y ago

Feel free to address what I've actually typed. You can address the imaginary person who wants to discuss instant money transfers some other time, perhaps.

vorpalhex 4y ago
> Just make it so anyone with an internet connection can transfer any amount anywhere else, online, without any transaction fees, within seconds. I can only read what you type. You seem to be talking about instant (seconds is instant in finance) money transfers.
- alexashka 4y ago
  We already have 'instant' transfers, it's called paying with a debit card at a grocery store. Now extend that to the internet, any amount (cap it to under a few thousand if you wish), no transaction fees (I already pay taxes). That'd be fintech, aka using technology to actually improve the finance industry for the people, but that's just me :)
  - ska 4y ago
    > no transaction fees (I already pay taxes). This connection seems ... tenuous. As you note, you already broadly have the ability to do this via debit card for most day-to-day things (with fees, for seller). What can't you do that want to?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    > We already have 'instant' transfers, it's called paying with a debit card at a grocery store. Actually not instant! Debit transactions can not settle for several hours, and even up to a few days (though usually much faster). Though your bank is typically able to say that they have the available money, settlement may not occur for quite some time.