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What you've done here is retreat from a motte (I couldn't even name two people who disagree) to a much stronger bailey (OK maybe they exist but they're only in
by origin_path 4y ago
What you've done here is retreat from a motte (I couldn't even name two people who disagree) to a much stronger bailey (OK maybe they exist but they're only in a minority). But how do you know if there's a consensus or not? How do you know they're a minority? Did some journalist tell you that? Or a scientist who has taken the doomer position? Nobody is really trying to properly measure this and it'd be meaningless to do so because we see what happens to scientists who disagree with end-of-the-world claims - they mysteriously can't get papers published anymore whilst counterclaims sail through peer review and straight into the front pages of national news. Academia doesn't have the systems needed to do something as hard as establishing the truth of things. That's why there's so many nonsensical or fraudulent papers out there.
So people don't take it seriously for a whole lot of reasons:
1. There's no penalty associated with making end-of-the-world predictions that turn out to be wrong, not even in the short term. We saw this with COVID. Scientists made predictions that were totally invalidated just weeks later, repeatedly, with no visible consequences or even any admission that anything had gone wrong. Indeed they routinely lied about their own predictions that were made in writing, and got away with it!
2. This is 100x more true in the long term. Climate predictions have a long history of being wrong. One dramatic example is Stanford Professor Paul R. Ehrlich who in 1969 was saying we'd all "disappear in a cloud of blue steam" within 20 years. He predicted America would be subject to water rationing by 1974 and food rationing by 1980. He said "By the year 2000 the United Kingdom will be simply a small group of impoverished islands, inhabited by some 70 million hungry people". He was claiming the threat was global cooling before switching to claiming the opposite.
What happens to people who make such expensive claims (for society) and yet turn out to be wrong? Nothing - they pretend they were right all along and the parts of our society most dependent or in hock to academia goes along with the fraud rather than call it out (which is anyway pointless because universities are basically impervious to accountability for their output).
But people see it, they remember, and they tune it out. I think this is why skepticism is more common amongst the elderly population. They're old enough to remember the long history of bad claims. They see that getting it wrong never matters, that wrongness is rewarded. And they stop believing. The young haven't seen that so swallow it all.
3. Scientists who predict doom often don't act like they believe it. The famous discovery that climatologists attend more foreign conferences than many other types of scientists, the way Prof Ferguson insisted lockdown was impossible to avoid and then broke his own rules to see his married lover, etc. These people invariably claim everyone must submit to terrible hardship that mysteriously vanishes the moment it might get in the way of something they want.
And so on.
- wizofaus 4y agoI didn't suggest you couldn't, was just curious who you considered as qualifying. Nothing in the rest of your post makes any sort of new or hard-to-refute claim. I'm desperately looking for reasons to be optimistic about our future and will happily embrace any movement that makes a good case for that optimism - but it really does require sustaining a level of cognitive dissonance that's beyond me currently.
- origin_path 4y agoWell, if you knew it was easy, why ask? A request like that implies you think it can't easily be done, which is why you excluded someone you thought I'd want to name up front. I'd love for you to be optimistic! But it's unclear why you're not, beyond a perceived failure to convince other scientists. That means virtually nothing though. The position of these scientists I named is "the temperature wanders up and down, most of it is natural, a bit of it is artificial, it probably doesn't matter much". Of course you can't convince climatologists whose entire career, funding, labs, and self-identity are pegged to the idea that climatology is of critical importance. What would they say exactly? Oops, sorry guys, we realized we made some mistakes and there's no real climate crisis, stand down, false alarm? They could never do that! The social pressure to only ever ramp up their predictions and never down is overwhelming in that sort of role. So the people who need it to be true due to their prior commitments are the last people you should care about whether they're convinced or not. It's people who are new to the topic, neutral, or who have taken the "climate realist" position despite the strong social pressures not to, who are worth paying attention to. And if you do, well, they make a lot of good points. The end result is kinda unsatisfying though. You can't feel good about saving the climate by doing tokenistic things like buying offsets or going to marches, if you come to believe there's probably bigger environmental problems out there.
- wizofaus 4y agoOr you know, you could just watch the news and see the predictions coming true faster than the models said they would... Also I don't buy the whole "self-identity...pegged to the idea that climatology is of critical importance" thing - a) climatology is still fundamentally important regardless of how much a problem AGW is b) plenty of scientists are pretty keen to stand out in their field and be remembered historically for being the one that demonstrated the current consensus was wrong. Lindzen tried to do that, and had a pretty decent hypothesis, but it just hasn't stood up to the testing that's been done (even he still only considers it a hypothesis).