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If we are permitted baseless speculation: NO, almost certainly not. Reason #1: Amazon needs robotics people badly. Roomba has a lot of robotics people and expe

by mlsu 4y ago

If we are permitted baseless speculation: NO, almost certainly not. Reason #1: Amazon needs robotics people badly. Roomba has a lot of robotics people and expertise. It's a natural fit, and an easy way to acquire a bunch of fully functional robotics teams. Reason #2: Vacuum robots are useful things, especially for people with pets, which is probably most Amazon customers. Chinese companies are eating Roomba's lunch when it comes to cleaning robots (and Amazon knows it!), so Amazon probably thinks they can compete, win, and yield profit on this investment. They'll do it by leveraging their existing warehouse expertise to help the robot clean your house better. Non-Reason #1: They want to sell your home information to the police state. Come on people, your local government already knows the layout of your home, you have to tell them that when you build it! Non-Reason #2: They want to look at products in your home to sell you stuff. Sorry, the embedded systems that are going to be on these things are going to be able to recognize "fridge," "bed," "power strip." Not "Miele SKU #7560, Brand New Condition" or "IKEA Krugsforst Chair, Tattered Underfabric". They are running mobilenet on 512x512 thumbnails, not efficientdet-v7 on 12 megapixel raw input. There is no GTX3080 on board this thing, and they're not gonna stream a high resolution video to AWS. And Lidar cannot tell what color your shoes are, or even that the point cloud is a pair of shoes. Non-Reason #3: They want to know what you own so that they can determine some other information about you. Uh, this thing is going to connect to your router, see a MacBook Pro, and a Sonos speaker connected, and subsequently know your monthly disposable income to the $10's. They already know this information -- they don't to do a bunch of extremely difficult statistics on the huge amount of data this thing could generate to figure these things out. Reason #0: Amazon sells things. This is a thing they can sell. You'll probably buy this thing after they acquire it, make it better, and market it to you.

godelski 4y ago
This just sounds like 6 reasons, not 3 reasons and 3 non-reasons.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
TrevorJ 4y ago
Given Amazon's reliance on consumer data and metrics, as well as their past behavior with alexa and echo I find this viewpoint to be almost stubbornly naïve.
- tra3 4y ago
  Agreed. Somewhat mirroring the "Nothing to hide" argument [0] -- just because I'm currently not doing anything illegal, I'm ok with invasion of privacy. Amazon et al, need data. Even though I can't think off the top of my head, how this data can be monetized, does not mean that someone with a correct incentive has not come up with a way to take advantage and abuse access to that data. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument
- zamalek 4y ago
  There are going to be high resolution cameras on them in no time, and people are going to love it.
- googlryas 4y ago
  Would you like to make some specific timebounded claims as to what you believe Amazon will do with this acquisition? So we can come back later, and tell whether OP is naive and you are a realist, or whether OP is a realist and you are overly paranoid.
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    Within the next 15 years, Amazon will provide data gathered from Roomba LIDAR and/or Sidewalk[1] to police (with or without a warrant) which will tell them how many people are in a private home, and when. 1. Or whatever their blanket WiFi system that piggybacks on your bandwidth is called
    - OrderlyTiamat 4y ago
      same, but I'm upping to within 5 years. I do not think given the history with ring that it'll take very long. Anyone wanna bet 3 years? Also reasonable I think, but I'm staying at 5.
mlsu 4y ago
Just to elaborate a bit because this is a pet-peeve. What's going on here is that people are misdirected. They've seen a bunch of sci-fi where physical robots moving through space can sense the world around them and use the information they gather to make the world legible to them. The assumption (fair, because moving robots look like us!) is that that is the easiest way to gather information is to physically See, Touch, and Hear it. Sophisticated robot system that looks scifi -> this must be the leading edge of the cyberpunk dystopia. The reality is completely different. Your life is already legible to the computer. For the purposes of whatever cyberpunk dystopia you imagine we are in, your 1kb credit card statement is like an 8K Imax camera to the Ministry for Coercion. The leading edge of the cyberpunk dystopia is the apparatus that tries to get you to be more online. Write more posts and emails, sign up for smart banking, use an internet system to keep track of your employees, digitize paper files and make them legible. Why would any intelligent malignant thing use the extremely power hungry and inefficient raw input from a physical robot for its purposes when it could use the extraordinarily efficient raw text format of bank statements, insurance claims, credit reports, browser history... Every piece of information that you imagine could be used against you in the hypothetical dystopia hinted at in this piece would fit inside of 100 megabytes of plain text. Plain text that you, or an entity working for your insurance company, typed into a computer. They already have it. These things -- scifi-looking robots -- really are just trying to clean your house better and sell you products more cheaply.
- godelski 4y ago
  I kinda agree with you, but also not. I think a lot of people here are over assuming what the robots can sense and yes, this is that Sci-Fi like reality. But this doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water. Anyone that has seriously worked with data will tell you how subtle things can reveal a lot of information. Let's look at these robots. Knowing that there are pets and/or children in a house is useful data to sell kids/pet toys and other items. You might think "Amazon already has that info from purchasing history" but a second source builds higher confidence and can differentiate if something was bought for yourself or for a friend. There's also information like how much the roomba fills up. Are you a messy person or very organized? Do you take off your shoes at the door? When you sit down at the couch? At all? Do you make frequent spills or messes in certain rooms? This obviously has selling potential. You don't need microphones or super sensors. Basic information can do a lot. There's also a lot to be said about redundancy and verification. I think you're over-correcting in your rebuttal. This is the reason data is scary, because it is simple and things you wouldn't think are useful. But they are useful when you have thousands or millions of data points.
ebertx 4y ago
While I agree that #1 and #2 are the biggest drivers for acquiring Roomba, I find it hard to imagine Amazon executives not actively discussing in-home robotics as a vector for increased data collection. It might be a few years out, but it will happen.
throwaway10436 4y ago
Does anyone have any data on if Amazon robotics devs are treated any better than Amazon's reputation would imply? I would fit squarely into this profile, but I didn't even bother applying. For context, I talked to over 20 bay area robotics companies, have upcoming on-sites at some of the self drivings and have passed technical interviews at other FAANGS. I've done everything from embedded computer vision / SLAM to drivers to kinematics.
decebalus1 4y ago
Reason #1 - I agree Reason #2 - Nobody disagrees with this. The robots would probably clean better Non-Reason #1 - There's a lot more information than the layout of the home which can be gathered by these robots. The layout of the home argument is a strawman. Of course the government knows how your rooms are partitioned. But the layout of your furniture, kids toys on the floor, water bowls for pets are just some of the things which can be detected just via blind exploration. The new models have cameras, I mean. And if you're saying 'but then all this data can already be inferred from your shopping history'. Yes, yes it can, but also another data point confirming speculative data can be valuable. Also, they can expose this data without your consent to the police and the data can be used against you in court. Think drug paraphernalia left of the floor or a stash of cash under your bed. Amazon's privacy policy states that they will share information with law enforcement in case of 'emergency'. A roomba with a camera turned on remotely is a wet dream for cops. Non-Reason #2 - Yeah, for now. Non-Reason #3 - `They already know this information` - they will know that information better. Whenever I hear this argument 'Oh, they already know'. No, they don't already 'know'. They have indicators about a particular piece of intelligence and now they'll have more. And the information you're talking about is the information which can be collected with the current sensors on the robot on the market. Who's to say what the future brings? Reason #0 - That's incredibly reductionist about what a company the size of Amazon does. But sure, have it your way. They sell things. This will enable them to sell things better. But that doesn't dismiss the fact that Amazon did and does share your personal information with law enforcement without customer consent and without a warrant. And let's not forget, Amazon received the largest GDPR fine in history. I would not trust any of my data to Amazon, let alone invite them into my house. Comments like yours, on a forum filled with people actually working on data collection related features makes me lose all hope that we'll actually reach a point in which the industry will side with the consumer. Just to remind everyone about the 'this is fine..' comments. Amazon bought Ring: 'this is fine..' - shared footage with LEO agencies without a warrant and without consent. Amazon releases Alexa 'this is fine..' - 'Amazon and third parties are collecting and sharing Alexa voice interactions from Echo speakers with up to 41 different advertising partners'.
threatofrain 4y ago
> Non-Reason #1: They want to sell your home information to the police state. Come on people, your local government already knows the layout of your home, you have to tell them that when you build it! Amazon is not the state and gathering information on your home improves their chances to win in the smart home. Having access to your home network also helps. The Roomba can also improve over time. If Amazon sees the Roomba is successful, then it will be considered more deeply for its strategic value. Given Amazon's willingness to fork over Ring data to police without a warrant, they don't have high credibility in my eyes for what they are or aren't willing to do to achieve any kind of advantage.

by mlsu 4y ago

godelski 4y ago

This just sounds like 6 reasons, not 3 reasons and 3 non-reasons.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

TrevorJ 4y ago

Given Amazon's reliance on consumer data and metrics, as well as their past behavior with alexa and echo I find this viewpoint to be almost stubbornly naïve.

tra3 4y ago
Agreed. Somewhat mirroring the "Nothing to hide" argument [0] -- just because I'm currently not doing anything illegal, I'm ok with invasion of privacy. Amazon et al, need data. Even though I can't think off the top of my head, how this data can be monetized, does not mean that someone with a correct incentive has not come up with a way to take advantage and abuse access to that data. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument
zamalek 4y ago
There are going to be high resolution cameras on them in no time, and people are going to love it.
googlryas 4y ago
Would you like to make some specific timebounded claims as to what you believe Amazon will do with this acquisition? So we can come back later, and tell whether OP is naive and you are a realist, or whether OP is a realist and you are overly paranoid.
- sangnoir 4y ago
  Within the next 15 years, Amazon will provide data gathered from Roomba LIDAR and/or Sidewalk[1] to police (with or without a warrant) which will tell them how many people are in a private home, and when. 1. Or whatever their blanket WiFi system that piggybacks on your bandwidth is called
  - OrderlyTiamat 4y ago
    same, but I'm upping to within 5 years. I do not think given the history with ring that it'll take very long. Anyone wanna bet 3 years? Also reasonable I think, but I'm staying at 5.

mlsu 4y ago

Just to elaborate a bit because this is a pet-peeve. What's going on here is that people are misdirected. They've seen a bunch of sci-fi where physical robots moving through space can sense the world around them and use the information they gather to make the world legible to them. The assumption (fair, because moving robots look like us!) is that that is the easiest way to gather information is to physically See, Touch, and Hear it. Sophisticated robot system that looks scifi -> this must be the leading edge of the cyberpunk dystopia. The reality is completely different. Your life is already legible to the computer. For the purposes of whatever cyberpunk dystopia you imagine we are in, your 1kb credit card statement is like an 8K Imax camera to the Ministry for Coercion. The leading edge of the cyberpunk dystopia is the apparatus that tries to get you to be more online. Write more posts and emails, sign up for smart banking, use an internet system to keep track of your employees, digitize paper files and make them legible. Why would any intelligent malignant thing use the extremely power hungry and inefficient raw input from a physical robot for its purposes when it could use the extraordinarily efficient raw text format of bank statements, insurance claims, credit reports, browser history... Every piece of information that you imagine could be used against you in the hypothetical dystopia hinted at in this piece would fit inside of 100 megabytes of plain text. Plain text that you, or an entity working for your insurance company, typed into a computer. They already have it. These things -- scifi-looking robots -- really are just trying to clean your house better and sell you products more cheaply.

godelski 4y ago
I kinda agree with you, but also not. I think a lot of people here are over assuming what the robots can sense and yes, this is that Sci-Fi like reality. But this doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water. Anyone that has seriously worked with data will tell you how subtle things can reveal a lot of information. Let's look at these robots. Knowing that there are pets and/or children in a house is useful data to sell kids/pet toys and other items. You might think "Amazon already has that info from purchasing history" but a second source builds higher confidence and can differentiate if something was bought for yourself or for a friend. There's also information like how much the roomba fills up. Are you a messy person or very organized? Do you take off your shoes at the door? When you sit down at the couch? At all? Do you make frequent spills or messes in certain rooms? This obviously has selling potential. You don't need microphones or super sensors. Basic information can do a lot. There's also a lot to be said about redundancy and verification. I think you're over-correcting in your rebuttal. This is the reason data is scary, because it is simple and things you wouldn't think are useful. But they are useful when you have thousands or millions of data points.

ebertx 4y ago

While I agree that #1 and #2 are the biggest drivers for acquiring Roomba, I find it hard to imagine Amazon executives not actively discussing in-home robotics as a vector for increased data collection. It might be a few years out, but it will happen.

throwaway10436 4y ago

Does anyone have any data on if Amazon robotics devs are treated any better than Amazon's reputation would imply? I would fit squarely into this profile, but I didn't even bother applying. For context, I talked to over 20 bay area robotics companies, have upcoming on-sites at some of the self drivings and have passed technical interviews at other FAANGS. I've done everything from embedded computer vision / SLAM to drivers to kinematics.

decebalus1 4y ago

Reason #1 - I agree Reason #2 - Nobody disagrees with this. The robots would probably clean better Non-Reason #1 - There's a lot more information than the layout of the home which can be gathered by these robots. The layout of the home argument is a strawman. Of course the government knows how your rooms are partitioned. But the layout of your furniture, kids toys on the floor, water bowls for pets are just some of the things which can be detected just via blind exploration. The new models have cameras, I mean. And if you're saying 'but then all this data can already be inferred from your shopping history'. Yes, yes it can, but also another data point confirming speculative data can be valuable. Also, they can expose this data without your consent to the police and the data can be used against you in court. Think drug paraphernalia left of the floor or a stash of cash under your bed. Amazon's privacy policy states that they will share information with law enforcement in case of 'emergency'. A roomba with a camera turned on remotely is a wet dream for cops. Non-Reason #2 - Yeah, for now. Non-Reason #3 - `They already know this information` - they will know that information better. Whenever I hear this argument 'Oh, they already know'. No, they don't already 'know'. They have indicators about a particular piece of intelligence and now they'll have more. And the information you're talking about is the information which can be collected with the current sensors on the robot on the market. Who's to say what the future brings? Reason #0 - That's incredibly reductionist about what a company the size of Amazon does. But sure, have it your way. They sell things. This will enable them to sell things better. But that doesn't dismiss the fact that Amazon did and does share your personal information with law enforcement without customer consent and without a warrant. And let's not forget, Amazon received the largest GDPR fine in history. I would not trust any of my data to Amazon, let alone invite them into my house. Comments like yours, on a forum filled with people actually working on data collection related features makes me lose all hope that we'll actually reach a point in which the industry will side with the consumer. Just to remind everyone about the 'this is fine..' comments. Amazon bought Ring: 'this is fine..' - shared footage with LEO agencies without a warrant and without consent. Amazon releases Alexa 'this is fine..' - 'Amazon and third parties are collecting and sharing Alexa voice interactions from Echo speakers with up to 41 different advertising partners'.

threatofrain 4y ago

> Non-Reason #1: They want to sell your home information to the police state. Come on people, your local government already knows the layout of your home, you have to tell them that when you build it! Amazon is not the state and gathering information on your home improves their chances to win in the smart home. Having access to your home network also helps. The Roomba can also improve over time. If Amazon sees the Roomba is successful, then it will be considered more deeply for its strategic value. Given Amazon's willingness to fork over Ring data to police without a warrant, they don't have high credibility in my eyes for what they are or aren't willing to do to achieve any kind of advantage.