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The people have voted that they would rather have KYC than criminal organizations operating at scale and foreign governments stealing from Americans. You may di

The people have voted that they would rather have KYC than criminal organizations operating at scale and foreign governments stealing from Americans. You may disagree, but your position is against that of society at large. You are perfectly free to exit society and transact only outside it.

Sargos 4y ago
There has never been a vote on KYC/AML policies and my research does not turn up any neutral sources suggesting the population strongly supports these rules. In fact history shows that these rules are almost all dictated by a small group of people with little to no public input. Over a hundred years ago none of these laws existed and society survived. 100 years from now I doubt these concepts will be widespread and society will still function well.
- lern_too_spel 4y ago
  Without these laws, the wealthy don't pay taxes, criminal organizations grow without bound, and foreign governments easily avoid sanctions. As money movement became easier, so governments couldn't stop that movement by issuing letters of marque, these laws became essential.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    So basically these laws perpetuate the status quo while consolidating power in the more evil and violent organizations that dodge these sanctions while subjugating the privacy conscious.
    - lern_too_spel 4y ago
      These organizations follow the law and are therefore easily in our control. North Korea and large criminal organizations do not and are not. It makes no sense to say that some organizations are behaving badly, so we should give up trying to regulate all organizations. If you're really trying to argue that, you should argue that tradfi banks should be unregulated. Then you can get your money-laundering done even more cheaply than inefficient decentralized protocols can manage.
      - notch656a 4y ago
        >If you're really trying to argue that, you should argue that tradfi banks should be unregulated. Precisely, I do think tradfi banks should be unregulated, with full knowledge that will enable more efficient "money laundering" for some (of course for many of the consolidated powers that be that suck up power when the small guys are blocked, it's no different at all) >It makes no sense to say that some organizations are behaving badly, so we should give up trying to regulate all organizations. Blocking all users of Tornado Cash because of some organizations that behave badly is exactly the kind of logic you're impugning with your statement here. We shouldn't give up on all Tornado Cash transactions because some are bad. You contradict yourself.
        lern_too_spel 4y ago
        > You contradict yourself. That's a strange interpretation of my words. TornadoCash allows DPRK to steal from Americans and use that money. We shouldn't throw our hands up in the air and say there is nothing we can do about it. We should instead prevent anybody from transacting with funds laundered through TornadoCash via regulation. This removes DPRK's profit and affects normal people by some amount approximating 0.
        notch656a 4y ago
        This won't remove DPRK's profit and the amount of additional suffering DPRK is going to feel is a lot closer to "zero" than the American who uses Tornado Cash to firewall their hot wallet from their cold wallet.
        lern_too_spel 4y ago
        > This won't remove DPRK's profit If nobody will accept their laundered coins, how do they profit? > The American who uses Tornado Cash to firewall their hot wallet from their cold wallet. That provides no benefit to society and causes plenty of harms. Working as intended.
aaaaaaaaata 4y ago
> The people have voted that they would rather have KYC Source? Paraphrased from what the other commenter said: Um, no.
game-of-throws 4y ago
Interesting logic. Would you say the people have also voted for the war on drugs?
- giaour 4y ago
  US voters, at least, have voted in representatives at all levels of government based on campaigns centered around a “tough on drugs” message, especially during the crack cocaine moral panic of the early 90s. It’s not much of a stretch to say the people have voted for the war on drugs, even if those policies would not survive a referendum or plebiscite today.
notch656a 4y ago
>You are perfectly free to exit society and transact only outside it. Except I'm not because it applies to 'US Persons' which for US citizens applies to them anywhere they are on earth or even on another planet. Also to not be a US citizen requires paying what is for many people a prohibitive exit tax of thousands of dollars to renounce. That is, you can exit society and still run afoul of the law.
concordDance 4y ago
> criminal organizations operating at scale False ditchotomy. Remember the mafia? They operated and operate at scale with or without tumblers. > foreign governments stealing from Americans. I'm a bit confused as to how you think banning tumblers moves the needle on this... Seems pretty negligible.

Sargos 4y ago

There has never been a vote on KYC/AML policies and my research does not turn up any neutral sources suggesting the population strongly supports these rules. In fact history shows that these rules are almost all dictated by a small group of people with little to no public input. Over a hundred years ago none of these laws existed and society survived. 100 years from now I doubt these concepts will be widespread and society will still function well.

lern_too_spel 4y ago
Without these laws, the wealthy don't pay taxes, criminal organizations grow without bound, and foreign governments easily avoid sanctions. As money movement became easier, so governments couldn't stop that movement by issuing letters of marque, these laws became essential.
- notch656a 4y ago
  So basically these laws perpetuate the status quo while consolidating power in the more evil and violent organizations that dodge these sanctions while subjugating the privacy conscious.
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago
    These organizations follow the law and are therefore easily in our control. North Korea and large criminal organizations do not and are not. It makes no sense to say that some organizations are behaving badly, so we should give up trying to regulate all organizations. If you're really trying to argue that, you should argue that tradfi banks should be unregulated. Then you can get your money-laundering done even more cheaply than inefficient decentralized protocols can manage.
    - notch656a 4y ago
      >If you're really trying to argue that, you should argue that tradfi banks should be unregulated. Precisely, I do think tradfi banks should be unregulated, with full knowledge that will enable more efficient "money laundering" for some (of course for many of the consolidated powers that be that suck up power when the small guys are blocked, it's no different at all) >It makes no sense to say that some organizations are behaving badly, so we should give up trying to regulate all organizations. Blocking all users of Tornado Cash because of some organizations that behave badly is exactly the kind of logic you're impugning with your statement here. We shouldn't give up on all Tornado Cash transactions because some are bad. You contradict yourself.
      - lern_too_spel 4y ago
        > You contradict yourself. That's a strange interpretation of my words. TornadoCash allows DPRK to steal from Americans and use that money. We shouldn't throw our hands up in the air and say there is nothing we can do about it. We should instead prevent anybody from transacting with funds laundered through TornadoCash via regulation. This removes DPRK's profit and affects normal people by some amount approximating 0.
        notch656a 4y ago
        This won't remove DPRK's profit and the amount of additional suffering DPRK is going to feel is a lot closer to "zero" than the American who uses Tornado Cash to firewall their hot wallet from their cold wallet.
        lern_too_spel 4y ago
        > This won't remove DPRK's profit If nobody will accept their laundered coins, how do they profit? > The American who uses Tornado Cash to firewall their hot wallet from their cold wallet. That provides no benefit to society and causes plenty of harms. Working as intended.

aaaaaaaaata 4y ago

> The people have voted that they would rather have KYC Source? Paraphrased from what the other commenter said: Um, no.

game-of-throws 4y ago

Interesting logic. Would you say the people have also voted for the war on drugs?

giaour 4y ago
US voters, at least, have voted in representatives at all levels of government based on campaigns centered around a “tough on drugs” message, especially during the crack cocaine moral panic of the early 90s. It’s not much of a stretch to say the people have voted for the war on drugs, even if those policies would not survive a referendum or plebiscite today.

notch656a 4y ago

>You are perfectly free to exit society and transact only outside it. Except I'm not because it applies to 'US Persons' which for US citizens applies to them anywhere they are on earth or even on another planet. Also to not be a US citizen requires paying what is for many people a prohibitive exit tax of thousands of dollars to renounce. That is, you can exit society and still run afoul of the law.

concordDance 4y ago

> criminal organizations operating at scale False ditchotomy. Remember the mafia? They operated and operate at scale with or without tumblers. > foreign governments stealing from Americans. I'm a bit confused as to how you think banning tumblers moves the needle on this... Seems pretty negligible.