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I was briefly in the "I've nothing to hide" camp. To put it more concretely, I didn't actually believe it, but I couldn't pinpoint what's wrong with it. What d

I was briefly in the "I've nothing to hide" camp. To put it more concretely, I didn't actually believe it, but I couldn't pinpoint what's wrong with it. What did it for me is manipulation - everyone can be manipulated with enough knowledge and effort, regardless of how smart they think they are. If you think that you're environment and what you see doesn't affect you, you're just plain lying to yourself. Collecting all this data massively increases the knowledge and reduces the effort necessary for those companies to manipulate you. Manipulate you to buy stuff. Manipulate you to engage, a.k.a. give your time away to make them money and so on.

chiefalchemist 4y ago
That's the crux of surveillance capitalism. You're the product and eventually its victim. Having read the book mentioned, I'd take it a step further and frame the current Gov v Big Tech struggles as Gov realizing that it's losing its grip on control (to Big Tech). So while it might be framed in other ways, ultimately Gov doesn't want to lose its status quo powers.
- karamanolev 4y ago
  "You're the product" doesn't really give the vibe I want it to. It sounds like someone is making money off of you, which is true, but it doesn't convey the "at your own expense" part. Even by simple things as better targeting, but eventually as main goals or side-effects of better ML/AI, you're manipulated to spend more, to feel worse about yourself so you spend more and so on. There was recently another article about "insight porn". If someone wants your attention and time, that's another way to take it. The better you know someone, the better you can convince them to give you money and time. So whether you're the product or not, you're paying for it.
  - galdosdi 4y ago
    "You're the livestock"
  - chiefalchemist 4y ago
    How about "You're the byproduct."?
  - yunwal 4y ago
    Not only that, but this stuff doesn't need to be 100% effective for it to have massive consequences. If amazon can use data about people to swing 5% of votes, the vast majority of politicians would give them pretty much anything in their power.
    - karamanolev 4y ago
      I think using arguments like "Amazon swinging votes" is bad, since it's easily countered with "Amazon is not interested in political elections". Amazon doing whatever they can to take more and more money from you, way beyond your means? Americans (figuratively, some) are already up to their eyeballs in debt. Amazon being able to make it much worse is already a huge drain on society. "A boring dystopia".
      - yunwal 4y ago
        It would be a massive oversight to claim "Amazon is not interested in political elections". Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post for a reason. Influencing politics is part of the way they take your money. Manufactured consent, political suppression, corporate lobbying, these are all things that every single Fortune 100 company is engaging in heavily at this point.

chiefalchemist 4y ago

That's the crux of surveillance capitalism. You're the product and eventually its victim. Having read the book mentioned, I'd take it a step further and frame the current Gov v Big Tech struggles as Gov realizing that it's losing its grip on control (to Big Tech). So while it might be framed in other ways, ultimately Gov doesn't want to lose its status quo powers.

karamanolev 4y ago
"You're the product" doesn't really give the vibe I want it to. It sounds like someone is making money off of you, which is true, but it doesn't convey the "at your own expense" part. Even by simple things as better targeting, but eventually as main goals or side-effects of better ML/AI, you're manipulated to spend more, to feel worse about yourself so you spend more and so on. There was recently another article about "insight porn". If someone wants your attention and time, that's another way to take it. The better you know someone, the better you can convince them to give you money and time. So whether you're the product or not, you're paying for it.
- galdosdi 4y ago
  "You're the livestock"
- chiefalchemist 4y ago
  How about "You're the byproduct."?
- yunwal 4y ago
  Not only that, but this stuff doesn't need to be 100% effective for it to have massive consequences. If amazon can use data about people to swing 5% of votes, the vast majority of politicians would give them pretty much anything in their power.
  - karamanolev 4y ago
    I think using arguments like "Amazon swinging votes" is bad, since it's easily countered with "Amazon is not interested in political elections". Amazon doing whatever they can to take more and more money from you, way beyond your means? Americans (figuratively, some) are already up to their eyeballs in debt. Amazon being able to make it much worse is already a huge drain on society. "A boring dystopia".
    - yunwal 4y ago
      It would be a massive oversight to claim "Amazon is not interested in political elections". Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post for a reason. Influencing politics is part of the way they take your money. Manufactured consent, political suppression, corporate lobbying, these are all things that every single Fortune 100 company is engaging in heavily at this point.