4 ms·

We can't know, Tesla is secret about the real data. From what we see in videos where people are testing FSD and the human had to save teh day many times in 30

We can't know, Tesla is secret about the real data. From what we see in videos where people are testing FSD and the human had to save teh day many times in 30 minutes. So for just that 1 car you would have had 1 death if the human was not there. IF we would have the number of how many times the driver would have been hurt if he did not take control then we could have a better guess how many kilometers a Tesla would self drive until would kill or hurt you,

toolz 4y ago
Tesla isn't hiding data, they simply only have autopilot data on highways, which their autopilot data suggests it's safer than human pilots on highways. Which to me suggests we should be putting social effort behind making autopilot (on the highway, at least) the norm. Perfection is not a requirement for advancement.
- simion314 4y ago
  The issue is that you have fanboys that are idiots and they will conclude this Human + Autopilot > Human => (implies) AI is better then human FSD > Autopilot Conclusion FSD is better then humans. Nobody said that installing a good drive assistant is less safe, the issue is with idiots using this stats to imply the AI itself is better then human drivers wich is a bad conclusion to draw from this. To prove FSD is better then humans, send a Tesla from A to B and note hoe many kilometers until it screws up. Repeat 1000 times then do the same experiment with 1000 humans. Don't forget to repeat after each update.
  - toolz 4y ago
    They already have a safety score you have to maintain in order to qualify for FSD beta, so this seems like an imagined non-issue. Simply don't allow FSD for people who drive recklessly.
    - simion314 4y ago
      You are one of the people that seem not to understand statistics, how can you answer if FSD is safe if the only data is when FSD is baby-sited by a human with a high score? Go to Tesla subbreddit are all hard core fans are and read about this topic, you will see many example of users having issues with this feature, the FSD is not safe, it will kill you if you don't pay attention, it might kill some innocent person because some random dude is alpha testing updates and maybe is also live streaming it for fun. I REPEAT, Tesla is not sharing the data so if someone is telling you that the AI alone is better then a human then he is lying, there is no data to show this. I would bet Autopilot/FSD is unsafe alone(without the human ) and the issue then raises because of marketing where someone say rents a Tesla, he believes Elon and does not pay attention and kills someone. I seen even Tesla fanbos acknowledging that FSD is not safe and just read a comment where one such fanboy had to explain his relative that FSD is a scam and not to buy it. Also there is a post ATM on Tesla reddit about someone that does not trust his relative driving his car with the autopilot because this person is failing to pay attention when using the AI, the dude was asking how could he make it impossible for this relative that shares the car with to use the AI.
- BoorishBears 4y ago
  > Tesla isn't hiding data No they are. They won't break out FSD and they 100% could > their autopilot data suggests it's safer than human pilots on highways Their autopilot data compared to every single type of car, with every single type of driver, only on highways. So we're comparing every 1994 Corolla with a teenage driver to every 2021 EV with a 30 yr old driver. The reality is AP should really be compared to modern cars which tend to come with LKAS and AEBm and stats should be adjusted to reflect the differing driver populations. But Tesla would rather throw up comparisons that make themselves look good, but only past muster if you don't think about it too much.
  - Volundr 4y ago
    > Their autopilot data compared to every single type of car, with every single type of driver, only on highways. Is there new data I missed? Last I was aware Telsa had published data comparing autopilot to human drivers, but not adjusting for road type, weather, road condition, construction, and any number of other factors in addition to the ones you mentioned. So basically Telsa determined that autopilot on easy-mode driving (highway, clear enough conditions for autopilot to be willing to operate), with a human backup, has less crashes per-mile than humans in the full range of conditions (including those where autopilot will opt out) with no backup. If that's not an example of "lies, damn lies, and statistics" I don't know what is.
    - BoorishBears 4y ago
      I think you're misunderstanding the quoted section, my exact point is they're comparing a narrow section of drivers on highways (people in Teslas who enabled AP) to all drivers on highways The narrow section excludes older vehicles, skews away from the most at risk demographics of drivers, removes the toughest highway situations from the equation since AP will disengage, the list goes on.
- x86x87 4y ago
  Nah. Tesla has a trust problem. I don't trust them. Also: you already have autopilot on the freeway: it's called cruise control + lane assist. That's not as sexy as saying autopilot though.
- culi 4y ago
  Actually autopilot seems to be just as safe as driving without it https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/10/28/new-tesla-autopilot-statistics-show-its-almost-as-safe-driving-with-it-as-without/?sh=710185081794 https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/10/28/new-te...
chmod600 4y ago
That's not needed to answer my question. Regardless of FSD, are Teslas more lethal per mile than other cars?
- culi 4y ago
  > Tesla’s Driver Fatality Rate is more than Triple that of Luxury Cars (and likely even higher) https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-433670ddde17 https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-r...
- simion314 4y ago
  Maybe you want to make you question more clear, do you mean Tesla with FSD, or only with autopilot, or with autopilot off, or in US highways, More lethal then all cars(old or new, cheap or expensive), motorcycles, trucks. If you compare with other luxury cars with similar safety system you might be disappointed and if you would then be honest ab out safety you would have to stop propagating the fake stats otherwise Tesla shares might fall and lots of suffering will happen for the fans. If you question was if self driving is safer then humans the answers sr probably no, if it were even close Tesla would have shown the numbers not kepp them hidden.

toolz 4y ago

Tesla isn't hiding data, they simply only have autopilot data on highways, which their autopilot data suggests it's safer than human pilots on highways. Which to me suggests we should be putting social effort behind making autopilot (on the highway, at least) the norm. Perfection is not a requirement for advancement.

simion314 4y ago
The issue is that you have fanboys that are idiots and they will conclude this Human + Autopilot > Human => (implies) AI is better then human FSD > Autopilot Conclusion FSD is better then humans. Nobody said that installing a good drive assistant is less safe, the issue is with idiots using this stats to imply the AI itself is better then human drivers wich is a bad conclusion to draw from this. To prove FSD is better then humans, send a Tesla from A to B and note hoe many kilometers until it screws up. Repeat 1000 times then do the same experiment with 1000 humans. Don't forget to repeat after each update.
- toolz 4y ago
  They already have a safety score you have to maintain in order to qualify for FSD beta, so this seems like an imagined non-issue. Simply don't allow FSD for people who drive recklessly.
  - simion314 4y ago
    You are one of the people that seem not to understand statistics, how can you answer if FSD is safe if the only data is when FSD is baby-sited by a human with a high score? Go to Tesla subbreddit are all hard core fans are and read about this topic, you will see many example of users having issues with this feature, the FSD is not safe, it will kill you if you don't pay attention, it might kill some innocent person because some random dude is alpha testing updates and maybe is also live streaming it for fun. I REPEAT, Tesla is not sharing the data so if someone is telling you that the AI alone is better then a human then he is lying, there is no data to show this. I would bet Autopilot/FSD is unsafe alone(without the human ) and the issue then raises because of marketing where someone say rents a Tesla, he believes Elon and does not pay attention and kills someone. I seen even Tesla fanbos acknowledging that FSD is not safe and just read a comment where one such fanboy had to explain his relative that FSD is a scam and not to buy it. Also there is a post ATM on Tesla reddit about someone that does not trust his relative driving his car with the autopilot because this person is failing to pay attention when using the AI, the dude was asking how could he make it impossible for this relative that shares the car with to use the AI.
BoorishBears 4y ago
> Tesla isn't hiding data No they are. They won't break out FSD and they 100% could > their autopilot data suggests it's safer than human pilots on highways Their autopilot data compared to every single type of car, with every single type of driver, only on highways. So we're comparing every 1994 Corolla with a teenage driver to every 2021 EV with a 30 yr old driver. The reality is AP should really be compared to modern cars which tend to come with LKAS and AEBm and stats should be adjusted to reflect the differing driver populations. But Tesla would rather throw up comparisons that make themselves look good, but only past muster if you don't think about it too much.
- Volundr 4y ago
  > Their autopilot data compared to every single type of car, with every single type of driver, only on highways. Is there new data I missed? Last I was aware Telsa had published data comparing autopilot to human drivers, but not adjusting for road type, weather, road condition, construction, and any number of other factors in addition to the ones you mentioned. So basically Telsa determined that autopilot on easy-mode driving (highway, clear enough conditions for autopilot to be willing to operate), with a human backup, has less crashes per-mile than humans in the full range of conditions (including those where autopilot will opt out) with no backup. If that's not an example of "lies, damn lies, and statistics" I don't know what is.
  - BoorishBears 4y ago
    I think you're misunderstanding the quoted section, my exact point is they're comparing a narrow section of drivers on highways (people in Teslas who enabled AP) to all drivers on highways The narrow section excludes older vehicles, skews away from the most at risk demographics of drivers, removes the toughest highway situations from the equation since AP will disengage, the list goes on.
x86x87 4y ago
Nah. Tesla has a trust problem. I don't trust them. Also: you already have autopilot on the freeway: it's called cruise control + lane assist. That's not as sexy as saying autopilot though.
culi 4y ago
Actually autopilot seems to be just as safe as driving without it https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/10/28/new-tesla-autopilot-statistics-show-its-almost-as-safe-driving-with-it-as-without/?sh=710185081794 https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/10/28/new-te...

chmod600 4y ago

That's not needed to answer my question. Regardless of FSD, are Teslas more lethal per mile than other cars?

culi 4y ago
> Tesla’s Driver Fatality Rate is more than Triple that of Luxury Cars (and likely even higher) https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-433670ddde17 https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-r...
simion314 4y ago
Maybe you want to make you question more clear, do you mean Tesla with FSD, or only with autopilot, or with autopilot off, or in US highways, More lethal then all cars(old or new, cheap or expensive), motorcycles, trucks. If you compare with other luxury cars with similar safety system you might be disappointed and if you would then be honest ab out safety you would have to stop propagating the fake stats otherwise Tesla shares might fall and lots of suffering will happen for the fans. If you question was if self driving is safer then humans the answers sr probably no, if it were even close Tesla would have shown the numbers not kepp them hidden.