7 ms·

Are Teslas more lethal per mile than other cars?

culi 4y ago
Yes: https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-433670ddde17 https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-r...
toolz 4y ago
I really hope FSD isn't heading down the path of setting a dangerous precedent that tech advancements must be perfect before society utilizes them. We have a technology that we know will reduce death and injury and likely by a drastic margin, but we're not utilizing it because it isn't perfect yet?
- mikestew 4y ago
  ...because it isn't perfect yet? No, because it hasn't been demonstrated to even work as promised, let alone "isn't perfect".
  - toolz 4y ago
    They release quarterly data that shows it works as promised and is much safer than human drivers on highways.
    - ra7 4y ago
      Those statistics are for Autopilot only. They hide FSD data. That data is also super misleading as they compare Autopilot highway crash rates with statistics for an average car (which is older and has fewer safety features than newer cars) that includes city driving (which is much less safe than highway driving). It's designed to advertise Autopilot as safer than it really is. In reality, it's about as safe as any new car with standard safety features (AEB, collision avoidance, lane keep etc).
    - gamblor956 4y ago
      I have to drive with Teslas every day on my way to work. Teslas drive like drunk drivers, whether using AP or FSD. Tesla fans might feel like they are safer, but from the perspective of someone else on the road, they are objectively less safe, unless you consider swerving, randomly slamming on the brakes, and tailgating to be examples of safe driving. And Tesla's AP system has more recorded fatalities than all of their competitors, combined. By the numbers, NHTSA data shows that Teslas are 50x more likely to get into an accident using AP or FSD than a Ford or Toyota; and the nearest legacy automaker is still 1/3rd as likely to get into an accident as a Tesla using AP/FSD.
      - mikestew 4y ago
        ...and tailgating Is that a AP/FSD thing? I ask only because just this weekend there was a Tesla on my rear bumper in a 30mph zone, and I had the cruise set to 34mph. I did wonder whether it was the computer, or if the driver was just an ass. Regardless, after a number of miles I grew tired of it, let's give 'em a healthy brake tap. Just enough to get the hint, I don't want anyone spilling coffee on themselves. So I give the brakes a good jab, and immediately back off. Next thing I know, I hear the tire chirp of ABS kicking in, and I look in the rearview to see the Tesla stopped in the middle of the road. Oops, sorry (not sorry?), not exactly what I was going for. OTOH, maybe you or the car will quit riding people's asses now. And I'll admit I got a good chuckle out of it.
simion314 4y ago
We can't know, Tesla is secret about the real data. From what we see in videos where people are testing FSD and the human had to save teh day many times in 30 minutes. So for just that 1 car you would have had 1 death if the human was not there. IF we would have the number of how many times the driver would have been hurt if he did not take control then we could have a better guess how many kilometers a Tesla would self drive until would kill or hurt you,
- toolz 4y ago
  Tesla isn't hiding data, they simply only have autopilot data on highways, which their autopilot data suggests it's safer than human pilots on highways. Which to me suggests we should be putting social effort behind making autopilot (on the highway, at least) the norm. Perfection is not a requirement for advancement.
  - simion314 4y ago
    The issue is that you have fanboys that are idiots and they will conclude this Human + Autopilot > Human => (implies) AI is better then human FSD > Autopilot Conclusion FSD is better then humans. Nobody said that installing a good drive assistant is less safe, the issue is with idiots using this stats to imply the AI itself is better then human drivers wich is a bad conclusion to draw from this. To prove FSD is better then humans, send a Tesla from A to B and note hoe many kilometers until it screws up. Repeat 1000 times then do the same experiment with 1000 humans. Don't forget to repeat after each update.
    - toolz 4y ago
      They already have a safety score you have to maintain in order to qualify for FSD beta, so this seems like an imagined non-issue. Simply don't allow FSD for people who drive recklessly.
      - simion314 4y ago
        You are one of the people that seem not to understand statistics, how can you answer if FSD is safe if the only data is when FSD is baby-sited by a human with a high score? Go to Tesla subbreddit are all hard core fans are and read about this topic, you will see many example of users having issues with this feature, the FSD is not safe, it will kill you if you don't pay attention, it might kill some innocent person because some random dude is alpha testing updates and maybe is also live streaming it for fun. I REPEAT, Tesla is not sharing the data so if someone is telling you that the AI alone is better then a human then he is lying, there is no data to show this. I would bet Autopilot/FSD is unsafe alone(without the human ) and the issue then raises because of marketing where someone say rents a Tesla, he believes Elon and does not pay attention and kills someone. I seen even Tesla fanbos acknowledging that FSD is not safe and just read a comment where one such fanboy had to explain his relative that FSD is a scam and not to buy it. Also there is a post ATM on Tesla reddit about someone that does not trust his relative driving his car with the autopilot because this person is failing to pay attention when using the AI, the dude was asking how could he make it impossible for this relative that shares the car with to use the AI.
gamblor956 4y ago
Yes. With 21 known fatalities in the U.S. alone, Tesla has more advanced driving system deaths than every other carmaker in the world, combined. (For the record, the combined total for every other manufacturer is 1: the Uber pedestrian fatality that doomed Uber's self-driving program.)
- v0idzer0 4y ago
  Okay, but entirely meaningless unless you adjust for miles driven with an advanced driving system. More people are killed with pistols than assault rifles. Are pistols more deadly?
  - gamblor956 4y ago
    By any adjustment Tesla leads the world in terms of fatalities related to its advanced driving system. All major automakers have released hundreds of thousands of cars with advanced driving features over the past 5 or 6 years, and Tesla is the only manufacturer worldwide to have recorded double-digit fatalities. And that doesn't include the thousands of accidents related to Tesla's AP/FSD systems. Tesla's advanced driving systems are objectively less safe than teenage or drunk drivers, by miles driven, and the sooner AP/FSD is banned, the better.

culi 4y ago

Yes: https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-433670ddde17 https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-r...

toolz 4y ago

I really hope FSD isn't heading down the path of setting a dangerous precedent that tech advancements must be perfect before society utilizes them. We have a technology that we know will reduce death and injury and likely by a drastic margin, but we're not utilizing it because it isn't perfect yet?

mikestew 4y ago
...because it isn't perfect yet? No, because it hasn't been demonstrated to even work as promised, let alone "isn't perfect".
- toolz 4y ago
  They release quarterly data that shows it works as promised and is much safer than human drivers on highways.
  - ra7 4y ago
    Those statistics are for Autopilot only. They hide FSD data. That data is also super misleading as they compare Autopilot highway crash rates with statistics for an average car (which is older and has fewer safety features than newer cars) that includes city driving (which is much less safe than highway driving). It's designed to advertise Autopilot as safer than it really is. In reality, it's about as safe as any new car with standard safety features (AEB, collision avoidance, lane keep etc).
  - gamblor956 4y ago
    I have to drive with Teslas every day on my way to work. Teslas drive like drunk drivers, whether using AP or FSD. Tesla fans might feel like they are safer, but from the perspective of someone else on the road, they are objectively less safe, unless you consider swerving, randomly slamming on the brakes, and tailgating to be examples of safe driving. And Tesla's AP system has more recorded fatalities than all of their competitors, combined. By the numbers, NHTSA data shows that Teslas are 50x more likely to get into an accident using AP or FSD than a Ford or Toyota; and the nearest legacy automaker is still 1/3rd as likely to get into an accident as a Tesla using AP/FSD.
    - mikestew 4y ago
      ...and tailgating Is that a AP/FSD thing? I ask only because just this weekend there was a Tesla on my rear bumper in a 30mph zone, and I had the cruise set to 34mph. I did wonder whether it was the computer, or if the driver was just an ass. Regardless, after a number of miles I grew tired of it, let's give 'em a healthy brake tap. Just enough to get the hint, I don't want anyone spilling coffee on themselves. So I give the brakes a good jab, and immediately back off. Next thing I know, I hear the tire chirp of ABS kicking in, and I look in the rearview to see the Tesla stopped in the middle of the road. Oops, sorry (not sorry?), not exactly what I was going for. OTOH, maybe you or the car will quit riding people's asses now. And I'll admit I got a good chuckle out of it.

simion314 4y ago

We can't know, Tesla is secret about the real data. From what we see in videos where people are testing FSD and the human had to save teh day many times in 30 minutes. So for just that 1 car you would have had 1 death if the human was not there. IF we would have the number of how many times the driver would have been hurt if he did not take control then we could have a better guess how many kilometers a Tesla would self drive until would kill or hurt you,

toolz 4y ago
Tesla isn't hiding data, they simply only have autopilot data on highways, which their autopilot data suggests it's safer than human pilots on highways. Which to me suggests we should be putting social effort behind making autopilot (on the highway, at least) the norm. Perfection is not a requirement for advancement.
- simion314 4y ago
  The issue is that you have fanboys that are idiots and they will conclude this Human + Autopilot > Human => (implies) AI is better then human FSD > Autopilot Conclusion FSD is better then humans. Nobody said that installing a good drive assistant is less safe, the issue is with idiots using this stats to imply the AI itself is better then human drivers wich is a bad conclusion to draw from this. To prove FSD is better then humans, send a Tesla from A to B and note hoe many kilometers until it screws up. Repeat 1000 times then do the same experiment with 1000 humans. Don't forget to repeat after each update.
  - toolz 4y ago
    They already have a safety score you have to maintain in order to qualify for FSD beta, so this seems like an imagined non-issue. Simply don't allow FSD for people who drive recklessly.
    - simion314 4y ago
      You are one of the people that seem not to understand statistics, how can you answer if FSD is safe if the only data is when FSD is baby-sited by a human with a high score? Go to Tesla subbreddit are all hard core fans are and read about this topic, you will see many example of users having issues with this feature, the FSD is not safe, it will kill you if you don't pay attention, it might kill some innocent person because some random dude is alpha testing updates and maybe is also live streaming it for fun. I REPEAT, Tesla is not sharing the data so if someone is telling you that the AI alone is better then a human then he is lying, there is no data to show this. I would bet Autopilot/FSD is unsafe alone(without the human ) and the issue then raises because of marketing where someone say rents a Tesla, he believes Elon and does not pay attention and kills someone. I seen even Tesla fanbos acknowledging that FSD is not safe and just read a comment where one such fanboy had to explain his relative that FSD is a scam and not to buy it. Also there is a post ATM on Tesla reddit about someone that does not trust his relative driving his car with the autopilot because this person is failing to pay attention when using the AI, the dude was asking how could he make it impossible for this relative that shares the car with to use the AI.

gamblor956 4y ago

Yes. With 21 known fatalities in the U.S. alone, Tesla has more advanced driving system deaths than every other carmaker in the world, combined. (For the record, the combined total for every other manufacturer is 1: the Uber pedestrian fatality that doomed Uber's self-driving program.)

v0idzer0 4y ago
Okay, but entirely meaningless unless you adjust for miles driven with an advanced driving system. More people are killed with pistols than assault rifles. Are pistols more deadly?
- gamblor956 4y ago
  By any adjustment Tesla leads the world in terms of fatalities related to its advanced driving system. All major automakers have released hundreds of thousands of cars with advanced driving features over the past 5 or 6 years, and Tesla is the only manufacturer worldwide to have recorded double-digit fatalities. And that doesn't include the thousands of accidents related to Tesla's AP/FSD systems. Tesla's advanced driving systems are objectively less safe than teenage or drunk drivers, by miles driven, and the sooner AP/FSD is banned, the better.