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> I only see people. I only see atoms dancing around. That doesn't make it a useful abstraction at the scale we are discussing. Government is just an abstracti
by blamestross 4y ago
> I only see people.
I only see atoms dancing around. That doesn't make it a useful abstraction at the scale we are discussing. Government is just an abstraction over a group of people self organizing.
> People feeling they have a right to use violence to achieve their goals, not so much.
Agreed, but government monopoly on violence is the only system that seems to have stuck. I would prefer a system of anarchy where everybody just did the right thing, but I haven't seen any evidence such a system lasts more than hours. Maybe we have to eradicate the cultural training and distrust we have already instilled into ourselves too. I've sat down and worked out the "root philosophy" of our political opinions with as many folks who will sit still for it, and this smells like the "Libertarian presumption that people, removed from the system of control, would all act better" and being in active denial that their planed solution for nonconformity they can't handle is "round up a posse and threaten/kill nonconformists".
- manofmanysmiles 4y ago> Libertarian presumption that people, removed from the system of control, would all act better" My premise is more: "If people act better, and then perhaps we won't need a system of external control." I will admit I dream of a world that may not be possible. However, I will continue dreaming, and act to see this dream come to fruition.
- alehlopeh 4y agoWhat actions are you taking that could potentially cause billions of individuals to suddenly act as though the concept of scarcity doesn’t exist? If the only path forward you see is for every single human to start acting differently, then you don’t see any path forward.
- blamestross 4y agoThe path to such a future will either be paved with mass extermination to lower to population to remove scarcity or via surviving with government until scarcity is defeated and government can be safely dismantled. I do agree that there is a root problem with any existing power structure not being truely incentivized to reduce scarcity and then loose power, but that doesn't make the thanos solution more ok.
- int_19h 4y agoIt's not an either-on. We can still minimize etatism and other forms of organization that require deep hierarchies.
- manofmanysmiles 4y agoReplying to the lower comment by 'alehlopeh' since I don't think threaded replies go this far down. Right now, I'm looking for people with "naive optimism" who would like to see this world. There are a few of us. I'll share concrete details with those folks.
- WalterBright 4y ago> Libertarian presumption that people, removed from the system of control, would all act better Libertarians don't believe anything resembling that. Libertarianism requires a government empowered to use force to guarantee peoples' fundamental rights. If you have more questions about what Libertarianism actually is, feel free to ask, as I am one.
- bitwize 4y agoLibertarianism requires someone empowered to use force. The idea of multiple competing law enforcement apparatus within the same jurisdiction is not just theoretical wankery, either; it's actually been tried. Most notably in the Icelandic Commonwealth, which endured for 300 years.
- WalterBright 4y ago> Libertarianism requires someone empowered to use force. As I said. > The idea of multiple competing law enforcement apparatus within the same jurisdiction is not just theoretical wankery, either; it's actually been tried. Most notably in the Icelandic Commonwealth, which endured for 300 years. Libertarianism doesn't specify the form of government, just the role of government.
- infinite8s 4y agoWho decides on the fundamental rights?
- wrycoder 4y agoThe people as a whole get together and decide, e.g. draw up a Constitution and then form a government to enforce those rights. If they don't, then the strongest horse in the area will decide. Take your pick.
- WalterBright 4y agoYour rights are inherent to being a human being. You are endowed by your Creator with the inalienable Rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. A libertarian government would be one that enforces those rights. Governments do not grant rights. They either enforce or abrogate them.
- int_19h 4y agoThing is, we are people. So the "people scale" is always going to be the most one relevant to us in terms of what governments do for / to us. The atom analogy doesn't hold here.