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That's a quote from greentheonly, FWIW. And it's absolutely true, you can pull up your Tesla app (or one of a plethora of community-authored tools) and see whe

by ajross 4y ago

That's a quote from greentheonly, FWIW. And it's absolutely true, you can pull up your Tesla app (or one of a plethora of community-authored tools) and see where your car is at all times (it even works for Turo rentals as long as you have an existing app and account). It's actually a really great feature, and one of the things that make Teslas Teslas and not just another car. The question is whether or not the history is stored, and how. And if your read farther down, it's clear there is what certainly looks like a good faith attempt to anonymize this data before storage. It seems that green then went into some detail about how a malicious insider might be able reverse engineer that scheme given enough access, but all that survived into the article is some impact quotes, so it's hard to tell what the vulnerability is. But no, Tesla isn't storing our driving history. At least not deliberately, and certainly with no intent to use it or provide it. (It's worth pointing out the level of double standard here: Tesla's location history storage is actually much more limited in practice than what you get on iOS or Android, yet... no front page articles on HN about those?)

judge2020 4y ago
> and not just another car. Worth noting that other manufacturers have clued in to how a good mobile app can be a selling point of a car or a package on that car - FordPass does location tracking[0], Chevy has tracking and life360-esque notifications where your family can know when it enters or leaves an area[1], and of course Rivian and Lucid have it or plan for it[2,3]. 0: https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/fordpass/getting-started-with-fordpass/where-can-i-view-my-vehicles-location-in-the-fordpass-app/ https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/fordpass/getting-starte... 1: https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2019/feb/0220-chevyapp.html https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detai... 2: a review from 'chas k' says 'It shows location of your truck' https://apps.apple.com/us/app/rivian/id1570215232 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/rivian/id1570215232 3: https://www.lucidmotors.com/air/connectivity#:~:text=And%20when%20you%E2%80%99re%20not%20around%2C%20you%20can%20soon%20keep%20watch%20through%20the%20app https://www.lucidmotors.com/air/connectivity#:~:text=And%20w....
jaywalk 4y ago
> Tesla's location history storage is actually much more limited in practice than what you get on iOS or Android, yet... no front page articles on HN about those? On iOS at least, your location history never leaves your phone. And you can also turn it off without losing access to anything unrelated.
- judge2020 4y ago
  * Only if you go to Privacy and Security -> Location Services -> Systems Services (at the bottom) -> turn off iPhone Analytics, Routing & Traffic, and Improve Maps. Apple's anonymization algorithm for these significant location services is probably better than Tesla's, but it can probably still be correlated to which house or neighborhood you start sending location from. And that's just the built-in location data exfiltration. As soon as someone installs a top app that requests 'always' location access it's gone, eg. Life360 (100M+ downloads on Android, you can expect similar numbers on iOS), Google Maps, Snapchat. Of course, this should all be in the purview that people tend to have an individualized risk tolerance for their location data. Some people are fine with contributing to traffic data by allowing Google Maps, Apple, and Tesla (if they have a Tesla)/their car manufacturer to track their location while moving, but would react harshly if TikTok asked for persistent access to their location data. Some people are even fine with Snapchat and Google asking them if they can log and associate location history with their account [0,1], assuming they trust them not to sell or leak that location data. 0: https://screenrant.com/snapchat-plus-ghost-trails-feature-explained/ https://screenrant.com/snapchat-plus-ghost-trails-feature-ex... 1: https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6258979?hl=en https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6258979?hl=en
- aeternum 4y ago
  This is only true for a very small percentage of users. Most apple users share location with family or one of many other apps that post location history to the cloud.
simion314 4y ago
>But no, Tesla isn't storing our driving history. At least not deliberately, and certainly with no intent to use it or provide it. Is this opt-in? Can you chose not to send telemtry to Tesla?> >It's worth pointing out the level of double standard here: Tesla's location history storage is actually much more limited in practice than what you get on iOS or Android, yet... no front page articles on HN about those?) There is no double standard, how many HNers will complain about Microsoft telemetry in Windows or VS Code, or the telemetry in Google Chrome? Probably Apple fans are fine with Apple knowing what apps they open and at what time and tons of other telemetry.
- judge2020 4y ago
  Out of the box, Tesla sends anonymized location data (the anonymization can't be perfect as the article points out) for traffic data reporting. Otherwise, pretty much every system in the car like the headlights, CAN bus, ABS, door and window microcontrollers, HVAC, battery management system, etc. are both updated during OTA updates, and send tons of telemetry to the main computer for processing and streaming to HQ, allowing Tesla to do extreme optimization and analysis on how well their parts are working and how efficient they are, with the ability to get cars in for service long before a problem turns into a catastrophic failure or makes the vehicle undriveable.
  - simion314 4y ago
    When I had to implement similar stuff in a program I created the user was Always prompted and the user had an easy way to check the data that was sent and they could deny sending the report. I assume the car has enough computing power to self diagnose any component issue and you don't need to send your logs to the cloud for a super computer to see that your battery is broken. My guess is like all telemetry, it is done for the company benefit not the user.
jjulius 4y ago
>(It's worth pointing out the level of double standard here: Tesla's location history storage is actually much more limited in practice than what you get on iOS or Android, yet... no front page articles on HN about those?) What double-standard? Those very iOS/Android storage practices have been frontpage fodder innumerable times (and will continue to be), and they're routinely brought up in the comments of tangentially-related threads, such as this one with your comment. That they're not on the front page at the exact same time as this piece doesn't mean that there's a double-standard.
therouwboat 4y ago
I dont like the idea that somebody could see what places I visited with rent car or that my husband could track my routes. Constant tracking is just bad idea.
stonemetal12 4y ago
Considering they need massive amounts of data to train their FSD, why should I believe they aren't collecting it on purpose or using it?
troah323 4y ago
> But no, Tesla isn't storing our driving history. At least not deliberately, and certainly with no intent to use it or provide it. Strong James Clapper vibes. Wyden: "Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions, or hundreds of millions of Americans?" Clapper: "No, sir." Wyden: "It does not?" Clapper: "Not wittingly. There are cases where they could inadvertently, perhaps, collect, but not wittingly."

by ajross 4y ago

judge2020 4y ago

> and not just another car. Worth noting that other manufacturers have clued in to how a good mobile app can be a selling point of a car or a package on that car - FordPass does location tracking[0], Chevy has tracking and life360-esque notifications where your family can know when it enters or leaves an area[1], and of course Rivian and Lucid have it or plan for it[2,3]. 0: https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/fordpass/getting-started-with-fordpass/where-can-i-view-my-vehicles-location-in-the-fordpass-app/ https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/fordpass/getting-starte... 1: https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2019/feb/0220-chevyapp.html https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/news.detai... 2: a review from 'chas k' says 'It shows location of your truck' https://apps.apple.com/us/app/rivian/id1570215232 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/rivian/id1570215232 3: https://www.lucidmotors.com/air/connectivity#:~:text=And%20when%20you%E2%80%99re%20not%20around%2C%20you%20can%20soon%20keep%20watch%20through%20the%20app https://www.lucidmotors.com/air/connectivity#:~:text=And%20w....

jaywalk 4y ago

> Tesla's location history storage is actually much more limited in practice than what you get on iOS or Android, yet... no front page articles on HN about those? On iOS at least, your location history never leaves your phone. And you can also turn it off without losing access to anything unrelated.

judge2020 4y ago
* Only if you go to Privacy and Security -> Location Services -> Systems Services (at the bottom) -> turn off iPhone Analytics, Routing & Traffic, and Improve Maps. Apple's anonymization algorithm for these significant location services is probably better than Tesla's, but it can probably still be correlated to which house or neighborhood you start sending location from. And that's just the built-in location data exfiltration. As soon as someone installs a top app that requests 'always' location access it's gone, eg. Life360 (100M+ downloads on Android, you can expect similar numbers on iOS), Google Maps, Snapchat. Of course, this should all be in the purview that people tend to have an individualized risk tolerance for their location data. Some people are fine with contributing to traffic data by allowing Google Maps, Apple, and Tesla (if they have a Tesla)/their car manufacturer to track their location while moving, but would react harshly if TikTok asked for persistent access to their location data. Some people are even fine with Snapchat and Google asking them if they can log and associate location history with their account [0,1], assuming they trust them not to sell or leak that location data. 0: https://screenrant.com/snapchat-plus-ghost-trails-feature-explained/ https://screenrant.com/snapchat-plus-ghost-trails-feature-ex... 1: https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6258979?hl=en https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6258979?hl=en
aeternum 4y ago
This is only true for a very small percentage of users. Most apple users share location with family or one of many other apps that post location history to the cloud.

simion314 4y ago

>But no, Tesla isn't storing our driving history. At least not deliberately, and certainly with no intent to use it or provide it. Is this opt-in? Can you chose not to send telemtry to Tesla?> >It's worth pointing out the level of double standard here: Tesla's location history storage is actually much more limited in practice than what you get on iOS or Android, yet... no front page articles on HN about those?) There is no double standard, how many HNers will complain about Microsoft telemetry in Windows or VS Code, or the telemetry in Google Chrome? Probably Apple fans are fine with Apple knowing what apps they open and at what time and tons of other telemetry.

judge2020 4y ago
Out of the box, Tesla sends anonymized location data (the anonymization can't be perfect as the article points out) for traffic data reporting. Otherwise, pretty much every system in the car like the headlights, CAN bus, ABS, door and window microcontrollers, HVAC, battery management system, etc. are both updated during OTA updates, and send tons of telemetry to the main computer for processing and streaming to HQ, allowing Tesla to do extreme optimization and analysis on how well their parts are working and how efficient they are, with the ability to get cars in for service long before a problem turns into a catastrophic failure or makes the vehicle undriveable.
- simion314 4y ago
  When I had to implement similar stuff in a program I created the user was Always prompted and the user had an easy way to check the data that was sent and they could deny sending the report. I assume the car has enough computing power to self diagnose any component issue and you don't need to send your logs to the cloud for a super computer to see that your battery is broken. My guess is like all telemetry, it is done for the company benefit not the user.

jjulius 4y ago

>(It's worth pointing out the level of double standard here: Tesla's location history storage is actually much more limited in practice than what you get on iOS or Android, yet... no front page articles on HN about those?) What double-standard? Those very iOS/Android storage practices have been frontpage fodder innumerable times (and will continue to be), and they're routinely brought up in the comments of tangentially-related threads, such as this one with your comment. That they're not on the front page at the exact same time as this piece doesn't mean that there's a double-standard.

therouwboat 4y ago

I dont like the idea that somebody could see what places I visited with rent car or that my husband could track my routes. Constant tracking is just bad idea.

stonemetal12 4y ago

Considering they need massive amounts of data to train their FSD, why should I believe they aren't collecting it on purpose or using it?

troah323 4y ago

> But no, Tesla isn't storing our driving history. At least not deliberately, and certainly with no intent to use it or provide it. Strong James Clapper vibes. Wyden: "Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions, or hundreds of millions of Americans?" Clapper: "No, sir." Wyden: "It does not?" Clapper: "Not wittingly. There are cases where they could inadvertently, perhaps, collect, but not wittingly."