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Jocko willinck (and many others I am sure) likes to state that you can’t rely on motivation because it comes and goes. Rely on discipline, build habits using di

Jocko willinck (and many others I am sure) likes to state that you can’t rely on motivation because it comes and goes. Rely on discipline, build habits using discipline if you want to get anything done. A trite but in my opinion helpful statement is discipline equals freedom.

layer8 4y ago
That sounds like insight porn. How do you build discipline if you’re undisciplined? How do you decide what to be disciplined about?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bitexploder 4y ago
  Stuff that you value. It is a simple and long term system specifically to maintain long term consistency. It just isn’t easy to do.
- recyclelater 4y ago
  I don’t consider that to be insight porn, which is why I found it personally valuable. I feel this is a fundamental law of getting anything done. There’s almost nothing that I actually want to do for extended period of times, but I want the result from having done that thing a bunch. For example, it’s really hard to go outside and practice archery every day, but I have to do that in order to have the result of those skills - a successful archery hunt. How do I get the results when I am way past the first month or so where motivation is waning? I have to have the discipline to work toward my goal, regardless of how I feel in the moment. I found this insight for lack of a better word to be so fundamental that I was floored when I read it in jocko’s kids book. I saw my dad do this, he clearly embodied this value and demonstrated it while raising me, but no one ever explained it to me. For a goofy comparison, I would consider “discipline equals freedom “ to be love making between a happily married couple, and blog spam insight porn to be actual porn.
- anotheruser092 4y ago
  > "How do you build discipline if you’re undisciplined?" Willink's answer is "Just do it." Very charitably, he suggests you should do things you ought to, even if they are painful and you don't want to do it. This actually has some backing in cognitive-behavioral therapy by starting with action first before motivation. Uncharitably, it's not nuanced if there are deeper reasons why you should actually consider to not work on something you've planned to do (though it's hard to say when this should happen). > "How do you decide what to be disciplined about?" Willink talked about how his first motivation was to be very good at his assigned tasks while in the navy. Then, if I remember correctly, he said his mission after retiring was to provide for his family and to help others with his content. For others, he said to focus on physical health; emotional stability; spending money wisely; spending time efficiently; taking care of family and friends; and doing great at your (presumable) current job. This is actually a very good starting point. My major criticism of his past work is that he seems to assume that leaders/managers work in good faith and won't exploit your hard work. In my experience and several reports by others, following his advice can lead to getting severely overworked for little-to-no reward by managers acting in bad faith. He also hasn't acknowledged (as far as I can tell) the importance of managing office politics in advancement in many workplaces. He said that outworking someone is the best way to counter someone trying to make you look bad in the workplace, which in my view is insufficient - you also need to talk to your manager about it in a tactful way. Lastly, his current content seems to be increasingly monetized, and he's had more podcast guests who are politicians, when he used to be apolitical.
  - recyclelater 4y ago
    I’ve always viewed his content through the lens of being your own boss, so being overworked and taken advantage of by an employer might happen, but if you don’t have the ability to work through things you don’t want to do, you can rarely succeed on your own. A boss is a great way to always have external motivation. That doesn’t exist when you work for yourself. Great points by the way. I would also add that Jocko Willinck is a master teacher in self promotion. The pioneer of “monetize my navy seal career”, but I do feel it’s mostly genuine and valuable content.
  - layer8 4y ago
- halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
  I've found the best way to build discipline is to find someone with discipline and have them keep you accountable. This could be a mentor of some kind. Granted finding that may be equally as hard as doing it on your own. Also you don't necessarily need discipline in the actual thing you want to do - you just need to know what it means to be disciplined in something and then you can extrapolate your behavior in discipline itself to then be disciplined in something.
- ip26 4y ago
  He suggests through practice. You start with something small but easy that you don't want to do, and make a habit of doing it anyway. His favorite small first step seems to be getting up early.
thenerdhead 4y ago
This is not a new idea. Just a new messenger for the modern era. Marcus Aurelius was talking about this thousands of years ago. > At dawn, when you have trouble getting out of bed, tell yourself: “I have to go to work — as a human being. What do I have to complain of, if I’m going to do what I was born for — the things I was brought into the world to do? Or is this what I was created for? To huddle under the blankets and stay warm?” > Don’t you see the plants, the birds, the ants and spiders and bees going about their individual tasks, putting the world in order, as best they can? And you’re not willing to do your job as a human being? Why aren’t you running to do what your nature demands? Not even "discipline", but what is "nature".
- alecbz 4y ago
  > Not even "discipline", but what is "nature". So… not what Jocko is talking about?
  - ianbutler 4y ago
    Nature in this context would be things you have to get done except more of a belief that each person has a specific pre defined role. He's still very much talking about using discipline to accomplish this role and often self admonished for not getting more of his own role done.
    - thenerdhead 4y ago
      Yeah, he's mentioning discipline being part of your "ethos" which Jocko would have plenty of experience living the SEAL ethos: https://www.nsw.navy.mil/NSW/SEAL-Ethos/ https://www.nsw.navy.mil/NSW/SEAL-Ethos/ If "the logos" (fate) declared Jocko to be a warrior, then it is well within his nature to be disciplined.
- rsanek 4y ago
  Rough self-talk from Marcus Aurelius in this passage. Not a big fan of this kind of approach personally. I've found that if I need to do this kind of self-motivation, I should be thinking much higher-level for the causes -- why do I not want to get out of bed? Perhaps I'm not working on the right thing, and need to change careers? Or perhaps I'm not dealing with something emotionally that is preventing me from doing my best work. In my experience, especially if this apathy is persisting over weeks+, it's been something much deeper than "oh I'm lazy and I just need to get up"
kirse 4y ago
discipline equals freedom The problem is it's not even correct. Discipline does not equal freedom. Have you ever seen a well-meaning man with all his might do the same incorrect thing over and over? Of course you have, because we're all that person in some area of life.
- anotheruser092 4y ago
  Viewing the phrase in isolation, this response is logically correct, but it's more interesting to view this in the context of the rest of the author's arguments. If you're consistent with physical exercise by resisting when you feel like skipping a workout, you'll have more strength, endurance, and freedom of movement when you become much older. And if you're consistent with improving at your career skills, you'll have more career opportunities in the future. Therefore, even if you may seem less free by avoiding unhealthy food or watching too much television, you're setting yourself up for more opportunities in the long-term. I personally do agree that you can be disciplined toward the wrong goals, though I also think it's more interesting to consider Willink's arguments as a whole, instead of focusing on a phrase in isolation.
- tertius 4y ago
  What's the best argument against your straw man here?
dominotw 4y ago
doesn't discipline require willpower though. I was told relying on willpower is bad because you only have limited amount of it per day and surely going to fail your when you run out of it.
- recyclelater 4y ago
  That’s like saying you have a limited amount of muscular endurance per day. It’s true, but it’s completely trainable. Meaning just like you can go from barely able to run a mile to being able to run an ultramarathon, you can do the same thing with your willpower. But unlike running a marathon, training your willpower will yield real, life improving tangible benefits assuming you can correctly figure out how to apply it for your benefit. Maybe a poor analogy because running an ultramarathon requires lots of willpower :)
  - hnfong 4y ago
    Thought of this. https://existentialcomics.com/comic/13 https://existentialcomics.com/comic/13 Regardless of whether one accepts the arguments in the comic, I doubt willpower can be trained. It's not like a marathon where you have to actually run to practice, every day you're faced with decisions and temptations that you can "exercise" your will power with. In a sense you can't really stop practicing with your willpower...
- csomar 4y ago
  > I was told relying on willpower is bad because you only have limited amount of it per day and surely going to fail your when you run out of it. This keeps getting repeated but there is no physical evidence to it. We know muscles have a limited amount of power (because they run out of ATP energy) but there is nothing that suggests it's the same for willpower.
  - dominotw 4y ago
    is there any physical evidence to - unreliable motivation that 'comes and goes' ?

layer8 4y ago

That sounds like insight porn. How do you build discipline if you’re undisciplined? How do you decide what to be disciplined about?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bitexploder 4y ago
Stuff that you value. It is a simple and long term system specifically to maintain long term consistency. It just isn’t easy to do.
recyclelater 4y ago
I don’t consider that to be insight porn, which is why I found it personally valuable. I feel this is a fundamental law of getting anything done. There’s almost nothing that I actually want to do for extended period of times, but I want the result from having done that thing a bunch. For example, it’s really hard to go outside and practice archery every day, but I have to do that in order to have the result of those skills - a successful archery hunt. How do I get the results when I am way past the first month or so where motivation is waning? I have to have the discipline to work toward my goal, regardless of how I feel in the moment. I found this insight for lack of a better word to be so fundamental that I was floored when I read it in jocko’s kids book. I saw my dad do this, he clearly embodied this value and demonstrated it while raising me, but no one ever explained it to me. For a goofy comparison, I would consider “discipline equals freedom “ to be love making between a happily married couple, and blog spam insight porn to be actual porn.
anotheruser092 4y ago
> "How do you build discipline if you’re undisciplined?" Willink's answer is "Just do it." Very charitably, he suggests you should do things you ought to, even if they are painful and you don't want to do it. This actually has some backing in cognitive-behavioral therapy by starting with action first before motivation. Uncharitably, it's not nuanced if there are deeper reasons why you should actually consider to not work on something you've planned to do (though it's hard to say when this should happen). > "How do you decide what to be disciplined about?" Willink talked about how his first motivation was to be very good at his assigned tasks while in the navy. Then, if I remember correctly, he said his mission after retiring was to provide for his family and to help others with his content. For others, he said to focus on physical health; emotional stability; spending money wisely; spending time efficiently; taking care of family and friends; and doing great at your (presumable) current job. This is actually a very good starting point. My major criticism of his past work is that he seems to assume that leaders/managers work in good faith and won't exploit your hard work. In my experience and several reports by others, following his advice can lead to getting severely overworked for little-to-no reward by managers acting in bad faith. He also hasn't acknowledged (as far as I can tell) the importance of managing office politics in advancement in many workplaces. He said that outworking someone is the best way to counter someone trying to make you look bad in the workplace, which in my view is insufficient - you also need to talk to your manager about it in a tactful way. Lastly, his current content seems to be increasingly monetized, and he's had more podcast guests who are politicians, when he used to be apolitical.
- recyclelater 4y ago
  I’ve always viewed his content through the lens of being your own boss, so being overworked and taken advantage of by an employer might happen, but if you don’t have the ability to work through things you don’t want to do, you can rarely succeed on your own. A boss is a great way to always have external motivation. That doesn’t exist when you work for yourself. Great points by the way. I would also add that Jocko Willinck is a master teacher in self promotion. The pioneer of “monetize my navy seal career”, but I do feel it’s mostly genuine and valuable content.
- layer8 4y ago
halfmatthalfcat 4y ago
I've found the best way to build discipline is to find someone with discipline and have them keep you accountable. This could be a mentor of some kind. Granted finding that may be equally as hard as doing it on your own. Also you don't necessarily need discipline in the actual thing you want to do - you just need to know what it means to be disciplined in something and then you can extrapolate your behavior in discipline itself to then be disciplined in something.
ip26 4y ago
He suggests through practice. You start with something small but easy that you don't want to do, and make a habit of doing it anyway. His favorite small first step seems to be getting up early.

thenerdhead 4y ago

This is not a new idea. Just a new messenger for the modern era. Marcus Aurelius was talking about this thousands of years ago. > At dawn, when you have trouble getting out of bed, tell yourself: “I have to go to work — as a human being. What do I have to complain of, if I’m going to do what I was born for — the things I was brought into the world to do? Or is this what I was created for? To huddle under the blankets and stay warm?” > Don’t you see the plants, the birds, the ants and spiders and bees going about their individual tasks, putting the world in order, as best they can? And you’re not willing to do your job as a human being? Why aren’t you running to do what your nature demands? Not even "discipline", but what is "nature".

alecbz 4y ago
> Not even "discipline", but what is "nature". So… not what Jocko is talking about?
- ianbutler 4y ago
  Nature in this context would be things you have to get done except more of a belief that each person has a specific pre defined role. He's still very much talking about using discipline to accomplish this role and often self admonished for not getting more of his own role done.
  - thenerdhead 4y ago
    Yeah, he's mentioning discipline being part of your "ethos" which Jocko would have plenty of experience living the SEAL ethos: https://www.nsw.navy.mil/NSW/SEAL-Ethos/ https://www.nsw.navy.mil/NSW/SEAL-Ethos/ If "the logos" (fate) declared Jocko to be a warrior, then it is well within his nature to be disciplined.
rsanek 4y ago
Rough self-talk from Marcus Aurelius in this passage. Not a big fan of this kind of approach personally. I've found that if I need to do this kind of self-motivation, I should be thinking much higher-level for the causes -- why do I not want to get out of bed? Perhaps I'm not working on the right thing, and need to change careers? Or perhaps I'm not dealing with something emotionally that is preventing me from doing my best work. In my experience, especially if this apathy is persisting over weeks+, it's been something much deeper than "oh I'm lazy and I just need to get up"

kirse 4y ago

discipline equals freedom The problem is it's not even correct. Discipline does not equal freedom. Have you ever seen a well-meaning man with all his might do the same incorrect thing over and over? Of course you have, because we're all that person in some area of life.

anotheruser092 4y ago
Viewing the phrase in isolation, this response is logically correct, but it's more interesting to view this in the context of the rest of the author's arguments. If you're consistent with physical exercise by resisting when you feel like skipping a workout, you'll have more strength, endurance, and freedom of movement when you become much older. And if you're consistent with improving at your career skills, you'll have more career opportunities in the future. Therefore, even if you may seem less free by avoiding unhealthy food or watching too much television, you're setting yourself up for more opportunities in the long-term. I personally do agree that you can be disciplined toward the wrong goals, though I also think it's more interesting to consider Willink's arguments as a whole, instead of focusing on a phrase in isolation.
tertius 4y ago
What's the best argument against your straw man here?

dominotw 4y ago

doesn't discipline require willpower though. I was told relying on willpower is bad because you only have limited amount of it per day and surely going to fail your when you run out of it.

recyclelater 4y ago
That’s like saying you have a limited amount of muscular endurance per day. It’s true, but it’s completely trainable. Meaning just like you can go from barely able to run a mile to being able to run an ultramarathon, you can do the same thing with your willpower. But unlike running a marathon, training your willpower will yield real, life improving tangible benefits assuming you can correctly figure out how to apply it for your benefit. Maybe a poor analogy because running an ultramarathon requires lots of willpower :)
- hnfong 4y ago
  Thought of this. https://existentialcomics.com/comic/13 https://existentialcomics.com/comic/13 Regardless of whether one accepts the arguments in the comic, I doubt willpower can be trained. It's not like a marathon where you have to actually run to practice, every day you're faced with decisions and temptations that you can "exercise" your will power with. In a sense you can't really stop practicing with your willpower...
csomar 4y ago
> I was told relying on willpower is bad because you only have limited amount of it per day and surely going to fail your when you run out of it. This keeps getting repeated but there is no physical evidence to it. We know muscles have a limited amount of power (because they run out of ATP energy) but there is nothing that suggests it's the same for willpower.
- dominotw 4y ago
  is there any physical evidence to - unreliable motivation that 'comes and goes' ?