4 ms·

Because, and I can't stress this enough, if I am at home cooking dinner or reading or playing video games, I am not working, so 2/3 of my entire weekend is more

Because, and I can't stress this enough, if I am at home cooking dinner or reading or playing video games, I am not working, so 2/3 of my entire weekend is more than 3/2 of time worked unless I am working 9-5 all day Sunday responding to pages, which no one is. Time and a half for hours worked is only > that 2/3 for time not worked if you're working 50% of the time, which you aren't, at least not regularly.

Tao3300 4y ago
> home cooking dinner What if the call comes right then? Now dinner is fucked. They'd better pay a lot to go messing with my outside life.
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  I would not cook a risotto while on call, but most dinners are not "fucked" immediately if you have to walk away with a few minutes notice (esp if you have a partner/roommate, but even if not) This is like the equivalent of saying dinner (or your day) is ruined if someone knocks on your front door unexpectedly. No it's not. And yes, you're getting paid 2/3 of your (large) salary for the possibility of this inconvenience.
  - Tao3300 4y ago
    Should be more if you ask me. I'm only going to get so many risottos in my life, but software will always be busted. If that's what employee lives are worth to Google, well, I guess that explains some things.
    - joshuamorton 4y ago
      Yes, 65$ an hour for the (relatively low) possibility of a burnt rissoto is truly an injustice. The alternative is that your company expects you to actually work full time for the weekend, since that's what they're paying you for. Is that really what you want?
      - Tao3300 4y ago
        > The alternative is that your company expects you to actually work full time for the weekend That's a strawman. Surely there are more alternatives, so I question whether or not you're acting in good faith. There's some dissonance here bc I see you getting viciously defensive (is that really what you want?) over something you're presumably happy about?
        joshuamorton 4y ago
        No I mean economically speaking, of you are being paid your full time (or time and a half rate) the company is rationally going to expect you to actually work during that time. If the company is paying the (overtime) cost of full time work, why would they expect less? Like unless you believe that there is truly no difference in the imposition of "normal" work and oncall situations, and you believe that no one else who is rational can see a difference, it follows that oncall will be compensated less, because it is a lesser imposition to the people who choose to do it. If you believe there are other rational alternatives, present them. Don't deal in innuendo and then claim I'm acting in bad faith. Nor am I being defensive, lol. I absolutely, in good faith, do not believe you fully understand the effects of what you and others in this thread are suggesting. And given that you weren't able to present any alternatives, I still really don't think you do. And the whole take is stupidly privileged, to boot. "I'm only going to get so many risottos in my life". Getting paid $65 an hour to not cook risotto is not an imposition to most people, or even most software engineers.
        thfuran 4y ago
        >Like unless you believe that there is truly no difference in the imposition of "normal" work and oncall situations, and you believe that no one else who is rational can see a difference There is a difference—the on call shift is more of an imposition. During regular hours, I could just decide to go for a walk for twenty minutes and nobody cares. I can't do that if I need to be able to have a few minute response time.
        4y ago
  - fragmede 4y ago
    There are a million ways my day could be legitimately ruined by the wrong person knocking on my door. Hopefully it was nothing but if the knock at the door was the police and they're taking you away in handcuffs, it doesn't matter that it all gets cleared up as mistaken identity, your night is ruined and that not-risotto has burnt a hole in the pan hours ago. Shedding the analogy, the pager went off, the whatever is down, and now the company is losing $X million a second. People who's experience is with systems where X is a large number are going to have different opinions than that of those where X is way below 1 and it's fine to take a few minutes to finish deboning the chicken.
    - joshuamorton 4y ago
      I promise you I'm closer to the $million a second category than the <1 category, and if the SLA is 5 minutes, it's okay to finish deboning the chicken. That's what the company decided was acceptable, you aren't required to go above and beyond that. You won't be rewarded for it. There's no need to be a hero. If they actually want a 1- or 2- minute response, then sure in with you, you're functionally chained to your computer. But we're taking about situations where that isn't a requirement. Butt also, systems that cause your employer to lose millions per second don't really exist, at least in the steady-state sense. The highest gross profit companies in the world are on the order of $1 million per minute, across all revenue streams.
thfuran 4y ago
>Because, and I can't stress this enough, if I am at home cooking dinner or reading or playing video games, I am not working Unless you happen to be on call, of course. Are you going to advocate for not paying people who work in call centers for the time between phone calls? Being on call is working, even if you've just been told to hurry up and wait.
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  Please tell me how I can cook dinner at home while sitting at my desk at a call center. If you're going with the inconvenience definition of labor argument, the inconvenience of having to be somewhere specific is greater than...not.

Tao3300 4y ago

> home cooking dinner What if the call comes right then? Now dinner is fucked. They'd better pay a lot to go messing with my outside life.

joshuamorton 4y ago
I would not cook a risotto while on call, but most dinners are not "fucked" immediately if you have to walk away with a few minutes notice (esp if you have a partner/roommate, but even if not) This is like the equivalent of saying dinner (or your day) is ruined if someone knocks on your front door unexpectedly. No it's not. And yes, you're getting paid 2/3 of your (large) salary for the possibility of this inconvenience.
- Tao3300 4y ago
  Should be more if you ask me. I'm only going to get so many risottos in my life, but software will always be busted. If that's what employee lives are worth to Google, well, I guess that explains some things.
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    Yes, 65$ an hour for the (relatively low) possibility of a burnt rissoto is truly an injustice. The alternative is that your company expects you to actually work full time for the weekend, since that's what they're paying you for. Is that really what you want?
    - Tao3300 4y ago
      > The alternative is that your company expects you to actually work full time for the weekend That's a strawman. Surely there are more alternatives, so I question whether or not you're acting in good faith. There's some dissonance here bc I see you getting viciously defensive (is that really what you want?) over something you're presumably happy about?
      - joshuamorton 4y ago
        No I mean economically speaking, of you are being paid your full time (or time and a half rate) the company is rationally going to expect you to actually work during that time. If the company is paying the (overtime) cost of full time work, why would they expect less? Like unless you believe that there is truly no difference in the imposition of "normal" work and oncall situations, and you believe that no one else who is rational can see a difference, it follows that oncall will be compensated less, because it is a lesser imposition to the people who choose to do it. If you believe there are other rational alternatives, present them. Don't deal in innuendo and then claim I'm acting in bad faith. Nor am I being defensive, lol. I absolutely, in good faith, do not believe you fully understand the effects of what you and others in this thread are suggesting. And given that you weren't able to present any alternatives, I still really don't think you do. And the whole take is stupidly privileged, to boot. "I'm only going to get so many risottos in my life". Getting paid $65 an hour to not cook risotto is not an imposition to most people, or even most software engineers.
        thfuran 4y ago
        >Like unless you believe that there is truly no difference in the imposition of "normal" work and oncall situations, and you believe that no one else who is rational can see a difference There is a difference—the on call shift is more of an imposition. During regular hours, I could just decide to go for a walk for twenty minutes and nobody cares. I can't do that if I need to be able to have a few minute response time.
        4y ago
- fragmede 4y ago
  There are a million ways my day could be legitimately ruined by the wrong person knocking on my door. Hopefully it was nothing but if the knock at the door was the police and they're taking you away in handcuffs, it doesn't matter that it all gets cleared up as mistaken identity, your night is ruined and that not-risotto has burnt a hole in the pan hours ago. Shedding the analogy, the pager went off, the whatever is down, and now the company is losing $X million a second. People who's experience is with systems where X is a large number are going to have different opinions than that of those where X is way below 1 and it's fine to take a few minutes to finish deboning the chicken.
  - joshuamorton 4y ago
    I promise you I'm closer to the $million a second category than the <1 category, and if the SLA is 5 minutes, it's okay to finish deboning the chicken. That's what the company decided was acceptable, you aren't required to go above and beyond that. You won't be rewarded for it. There's no need to be a hero. If they actually want a 1- or 2- minute response, then sure in with you, you're functionally chained to your computer. But we're taking about situations where that isn't a requirement. Butt also, systems that cause your employer to lose millions per second don't really exist, at least in the steady-state sense. The highest gross profit companies in the world are on the order of $1 million per minute, across all revenue streams.

thfuran 4y ago

>Because, and I can't stress this enough, if I am at home cooking dinner or reading or playing video games, I am not working Unless you happen to be on call, of course. Are you going to advocate for not paying people who work in call centers for the time between phone calls? Being on call is working, even if you've just been told to hurry up and wait.

joshuamorton 4y ago
Please tell me how I can cook dinner at home while sitting at my desk at a call center. If you're going with the inconvenience definition of labor argument, the inconvenience of having to be somewhere specific is greater than...not.