27 ms·

Well, even long before the war I saw how on the BBC World News three British journalists talked about British astronaut flying to the ISS without even once ment

by gdy 4y ago

Well, even long before the war I saw how on the BBC World News three British journalists talked about British astronaut flying to the ISS without even once mentioning that he got there on the Russian rocket. They mentioned Kazakhstan though and showed the rocket flying up.

trasz 4y ago
Before which war? Because while it took the genocide in Ukraine for the world to realise Russians become literal nazis, it's been Russian modus operandi for quite a while now. Also, see how you just called it a "Russian rocket" despite the fact that things like guidance were Ukrainian? It wasn't Russian - it was Soviet, from back when USSR consisted of a number of republics, including Russia and Ukraine.
- parineum 4y ago
  It's not "technically correct" but I don't think it's far from the truth to think of the USSR as Russia and the land they annexed. Plus, was it "Ukranian" or was it built by Russians with Russian money on the order of Russians in Ukraine? Like, were Americans killed by Jewish bullets in WW2 because it was Jews in the Nazi factories?
  - trasz 4y ago
    >It's not "technically correct" but I don't think it's far from the truth to think of the USSR as Russia and the land they annexed. Not land - countries. Differently from, say, British colonialism, you can’t claim with a straight face that Russia brought with it the technology or culture. In fact it was pretty much the opposite. >Plus, was it "Ukranian" or was it built by Russians with Russian money on the order of Russians in Ukraine? It was Ukrainian, that’s the point: the brains part came from Ukraine, not Russia.
    - gdy 4y ago
      "the brains part came from Ukraine" The brains that developed it worked in Moscow in the 80s[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurs_(docking_navigation_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurs_(docking_navigation_syste...
      - trasz 4y ago
        But the brains that made it work were in Kyiv. It took Russia over ten years (and probably tons of imported electronics) to replace it.
        gdy 4y ago
        I don't see what point you are trying to make. Russia has almost completely replaced obsolete Soviet electronics of both Soyuz spacecraft and Soyuz rocket with modern tech. http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz2-1a.html http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz2-1a.html http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz-ms.html http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz-ms.html
        trasz 4y ago
        Given that Russia can’t even manufacture ordinary cars (or phones, or computers…), I’m not convinced about this “modern” replacement. They probably just figured how to replace custom technology with COTS stuff bought from the West. Especially given Russian fakes like the Sputnik vaccine (“clinical tests” were made up), or their hypersonics (which are just a plane-launched ballistic missiles), or drones.
        gdy 4y ago
        And yet it delivers cosmonauts to ISS in 3 hours [0], something that is out of reach for Western tech. "their hypersonics (which are just a plane-launched ballistic missiles)" You are confusing Zircon [2] with Kinzhal [1]. [0] https://www.space.com/soyuz-makes-fastest-space-station-crew-flight-record https://www.space.com/soyuz-makes-fastest-space-station-crew... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-47M2_Kinzhal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-47M2_Kinzhal [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M22_Zircon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M22_Zircon
    - parineum 4y ago
      > Not land - countries. Yes, most (all?) land belongs to countries. You're being weirdly pedantic. But then, once it's annexed, it's just part of the USSR. Remember how we don't say "the Ukraine" anymore? The reason why we _used_ to say that is because it _used_ to be accurate because there wasn't a country, it was a region of the USSR. > you can’t claim with a straight face that Russia brought with it the technology or culture That's not really the claim I'm making. The claim I'm making is that the USSR space program being called a "Russian" space program isn't really egregious (and, I think, colloquially true). The technology that space program developed is appropriately called Russian, even if each individual working on it isn't Russian, even if every component wasn't made by Russia. The program is a Russian effort and the result was a Russian rocket. > the brains part came from Ukraine, not Russia NASA doesn't only employ natural born Americans. The guy who developed the Russian guidance system was Ukrainian. It's still Russian.
      - trasz 4y ago
        >Yes, most (all?) land belongs to countries. But countries are more than land. It's not that Ukrainian land was part of USSR - the Ukrainian nation was part of USSR. Same with Russian nation. >The program is a Russian effort and the result was a Russian rocket. No, that's the point: the program was Soviet, and the result was a Soviet rocket. Russia was just one part of that. And if you look at the last two decades, you'll see what while Ukraine was able to build a functioning country, Russia failed to achieve anything apart from selling out what's left by USSR and oil/gas extraction using foreign-bought technologies.
        gdy 4y ago
        What exactly was functioning in the Ukraine? Russia has built new types of aircraft, new rocket, new nuclear icebreakers and power stations, its own internet search engine that can stand up to Google, and what not. Stop learning about the world through BBC.
        trasz 4y ago
        >Russia has built new types of aircraft, new rocket This would be a valid argument six months ago. Now we know those "new types of aircraft" were vaporware, and missiles work really fine only if you can claim that a random barn is a valid military target. Some of the things that did materialize - like the new military telecom system - turned out to be rebranded Chinese products. >new nuclear icebreakers Which were co-developed with Ukraine. Btw, do you know Russia's only aircraft carrier was literally stolen from Ukraine? >its own internet search engine This one is actually true, but on the other hand Ukraine had wider success with Whatsapp.
- gdy 4y ago
  Yeah, right, Russians are 'literal Nazis' but somehow even Reuters publishes picture captioned 'A local resident inspects a damaged van following a military strike' and it shows a thug with Swastika on his arm (pic. #4) [0]. If you use the word 'genocide' now, why didn't you use it when Ukrainian nationalists burned alive 42 pro-Russian Ukrainians [4]? 'it's been Russian modus operandi for quite a while now' I think this bold statement deserves to be elaborated. "things like guidance were Ukrainian" The only thing that was Ukrainian-built was the Kurs guidance system[2]. It was developed by the Research Institute of Precision Instruments (Moscow) before 1985 and manufactured by the Kiev Radio Factory[1]. In 2016 that Soviet analog system was replaced by modern Russian Kurs-NA[3]. [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/battle-ukraines-east-rages-zelenskiy-vows-retake-territory-2022-06-07/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/battle-ukraines-east-ra... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurs_(docking_navigation_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurs_(docking_navigation_syste... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_(spacecraft)#Soyuz_TMA-M_(2010%E2%80%932016) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_(spacecraft)#Soyuz_TMA-M... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_(spacecraft)#Soyuz_MS_(since_2016) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_(spacecraft)#Soyuz_MS_(s... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odesa_clashes#Trade_Unions_House_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odesa_clashes#Trade_Union...
  - trasz 4y ago
    >even Reuters publishes picture There are - or were - a few nazis in Ukraine, sure. But in case of Russians all of them are nazis, because that's their state ideology: to destroy a (clearly superior, if you look at the history, eg the achievements over the past two decades) Ukrainian nation. >If you use the word 'genocide' now, why didn't you use it when Ukrainian nationalists burned alive 42 pro-Russian Ukrainians Because the offenders turned out to be pro-Russian, and quite a few of the victims turned out to be Russian-sponsored operatives. Killing own people for propaganda purposes seems standard in Russia, see the Theatre crisis. And even if it hadn't turned out that way, there would be a fundamental difference between a random terrorist attack and a planned genocide.
    - gdy 4y ago
      "(superior) Ukrainian nation" Speaking like a Nazi now, aren't you? Ukraine über alles, right?

by gdy 4y ago

trasz 4y ago

Before which war? Because while it took the genocide in Ukraine for the world to realise Russians become literal nazis, it's been Russian modus operandi for quite a while now. Also, see how you just called it a "Russian rocket" despite the fact that things like guidance were Ukrainian? It wasn't Russian - it was Soviet, from back when USSR consisted of a number of republics, including Russia and Ukraine.

parineum 4y ago
It's not "technically correct" but I don't think it's far from the truth to think of the USSR as Russia and the land they annexed. Plus, was it "Ukranian" or was it built by Russians with Russian money on the order of Russians in Ukraine? Like, were Americans killed by Jewish bullets in WW2 because it was Jews in the Nazi factories?
- trasz 4y ago
  >It's not "technically correct" but I don't think it's far from the truth to think of the USSR as Russia and the land they annexed. Not land - countries. Differently from, say, British colonialism, you can’t claim with a straight face that Russia brought with it the technology or culture. In fact it was pretty much the opposite. >Plus, was it "Ukranian" or was it built by Russians with Russian money on the order of Russians in Ukraine? It was Ukrainian, that’s the point: the brains part came from Ukraine, not Russia.
  - gdy 4y ago
    "the brains part came from Ukraine" The brains that developed it worked in Moscow in the 80s[0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurs_(docking_navigation_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurs_(docking_navigation_syste...
    - trasz 4y ago
      But the brains that made it work were in Kyiv. It took Russia over ten years (and probably tons of imported electronics) to replace it.
      - gdy 4y ago
        I don't see what point you are trying to make. Russia has almost completely replaced obsolete Soviet electronics of both Soyuz spacecraft and Soyuz rocket with modern tech. http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz2-1a.html http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz2-1a.html http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz-ms.html http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz-ms.html
        trasz 4y ago
        Given that Russia can’t even manufacture ordinary cars (or phones, or computers…), I’m not convinced about this “modern” replacement. They probably just figured how to replace custom technology with COTS stuff bought from the West. Especially given Russian fakes like the Sputnik vaccine (“clinical tests” were made up), or their hypersonics (which are just a plane-launched ballistic missiles), or drones.
        gdy 4y ago
        And yet it delivers cosmonauts to ISS in 3 hours [0], something that is out of reach for Western tech. "their hypersonics (which are just a plane-launched ballistic missiles)" You are confusing Zircon [2] with Kinzhal [1]. [0] https://www.space.com/soyuz-makes-fastest-space-station-crew-flight-record https://www.space.com/soyuz-makes-fastest-space-station-crew... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-47M2_Kinzhal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-47M2_Kinzhal [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M22_Zircon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M22_Zircon
  - parineum 4y ago
    > Not land - countries. Yes, most (all?) land belongs to countries. You're being weirdly pedantic. But then, once it's annexed, it's just part of the USSR. Remember how we don't say "the Ukraine" anymore? The reason why we _used_ to say that is because it _used_ to be accurate because there wasn't a country, it was a region of the USSR. > you can’t claim with a straight face that Russia brought with it the technology or culture That's not really the claim I'm making. The claim I'm making is that the USSR space program being called a "Russian" space program isn't really egregious (and, I think, colloquially true). The technology that space program developed is appropriately called Russian, even if each individual working on it isn't Russian, even if every component wasn't made by Russia. The program is a Russian effort and the result was a Russian rocket. > the brains part came from Ukraine, not Russia NASA doesn't only employ natural born Americans. The guy who developed the Russian guidance system was Ukrainian. It's still Russian.
    - trasz 4y ago
      >Yes, most (all?) land belongs to countries. But countries are more than land. It's not that Ukrainian land was part of USSR - the Ukrainian nation was part of USSR. Same with Russian nation. >The program is a Russian effort and the result was a Russian rocket. No, that's the point: the program was Soviet, and the result was a Soviet rocket. Russia was just one part of that. And if you look at the last two decades, you'll see what while Ukraine was able to build a functioning country, Russia failed to achieve anything apart from selling out what's left by USSR and oil/gas extraction using foreign-bought technologies.
      - gdy 4y ago
        What exactly was functioning in the Ukraine? Russia has built new types of aircraft, new rocket, new nuclear icebreakers and power stations, its own internet search engine that can stand up to Google, and what not. Stop learning about the world through BBC.
        trasz 4y ago
        >Russia has built new types of aircraft, new rocket This would be a valid argument six months ago. Now we know those "new types of aircraft" were vaporware, and missiles work really fine only if you can claim that a random barn is a valid military target. Some of the things that did materialize - like the new military telecom system - turned out to be rebranded Chinese products. >new nuclear icebreakers Which were co-developed with Ukraine. Btw, do you know Russia's only aircraft carrier was literally stolen from Ukraine? >its own internet search engine This one is actually true, but on the other hand Ukraine had wider success with Whatsapp.
gdy 4y ago
Yeah, right, Russians are 'literal Nazis' but somehow even Reuters publishes picture captioned 'A local resident inspects a damaged van following a military strike' and it shows a thug with Swastika on his arm (pic. #4) [0]. If you use the word 'genocide' now, why didn't you use it when Ukrainian nationalists burned alive 42 pro-Russian Ukrainians [4]? 'it's been Russian modus operandi for quite a while now' I think this bold statement deserves to be elaborated. "things like guidance were Ukrainian" The only thing that was Ukrainian-built was the Kurs guidance system[2]. It was developed by the Research Institute of Precision Instruments (Moscow) before 1985 and manufactured by the Kiev Radio Factory[1]. In 2016 that Soviet analog system was replaced by modern Russian Kurs-NA[3]. [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/battle-ukraines-east-rages-zelenskiy-vows-retake-territory-2022-06-07/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/battle-ukraines-east-ra... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurs_(docking_navigation_system) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurs_(docking_navigation_syste... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_(spacecraft)#Soyuz_TMA-M_(2010%E2%80%932016) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_(spacecraft)#Soyuz_TMA-M... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_(spacecraft)#Soyuz_MS_(since_2016) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_(spacecraft)#Soyuz_MS_(s... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odesa_clashes#Trade_Unions_House_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odesa_clashes#Trade_Union...
- trasz 4y ago
  >even Reuters publishes picture There are - or were - a few nazis in Ukraine, sure. But in case of Russians all of them are nazis, because that's their state ideology: to destroy a (clearly superior, if you look at the history, eg the achievements over the past two decades) Ukrainian nation. >If you use the word 'genocide' now, why didn't you use it when Ukrainian nationalists burned alive 42 pro-Russian Ukrainians Because the offenders turned out to be pro-Russian, and quite a few of the victims turned out to be Russian-sponsored operatives. Killing own people for propaganda purposes seems standard in Russia, see the Theatre crisis. And even if it hadn't turned out that way, there would be a fundamental difference between a random terrorist attack and a planned genocide.
  - gdy 4y ago
    "(superior) Ukrainian nation" Speaking like a Nazi now, aren't you? Ukraine über alles, right?