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He is rich and able, I would have done the same if I was in his shoes so I don't judge him from moral perspective. I'm on the same page with the Germans on this

by mrtksn 4y ago

He is rich and able, I would have done the same if I was in his shoes so I don't judge him from moral perspective. I'm on the same page with the Germans on this one, i.e. it shouldn't be a crime and it's not wrong to escape from prison. That said, not being him, I really don't like the narrative built around how Japanese prisons are horrible and it's justified to not serve for crimes in Japan. I also wonder if the "Japanese prisons and legal system are not good" editorials were coordinated. IMHO, if Japanese system is that bad, People should stop going to Japan or take action to fix it for everyone instead of normalising the getting of scott-free for the elite.

throwoutway 4y ago
> it's not wrong to escape from prison. Uh, yes it is. Maybe if you’re imprisoned illegally (kidnapping or by kangaroo court) but in the general case—in a democracy with actual courts, it’s wrong. You think the cartel bosses that escaped from Mexico’s prisons were not morally and ethically wrong on multiple levels? Just because there’s also some corruption in the gov? Or because the prisons aren’t great. That’s unreasonable
- collegeburner 4y ago
  meh it's the shit that got them in there that was wrong. it may give us the justification to hold them prisoner but they still aren't morally required to not escape. like it's up to the judge what sentence they get so how could that even be a moral obligation?
- mrtksn 4y ago
  I think the burden for imprisonment and compelling people to stay in prison is on the punishers. That should not be confused with the crimes being wrong, I'm talking about ones desire not to be imprisoned being a natural desire and acting on it not being wrong by itself.
- jokowueu 4y ago
  There are major issues with Japan's justice system though . I mean just reading the link on this thread made me sad Michael Taylor. Mr. Taylor pleaded guilty to aiding Mr. Ghosn’s escape and started a two-year sentence at Tokyo’s Fuchu Prison in the summer of 2021; he spends much of his day in solitary confinement.
  - exhilaration 4y ago
    Just in case the folks reading this comment don't see what's so bad about solitary confinement: Prolonged solitary confinement amounts to psychological torture, says UN expert https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/02/united-states-prolonged-solitary-confinement-amounts-psychological-torture https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/02/united-state...
- snovv_crash 4y ago
  I think the argument here is that being in prison is a bad experience and wanting to escape is normal, natural human behaviour. As such, the onus is not on the prisoner to stay inside, but on the guards to keep them there. Escaping is, as such, not a crime in itself.
  - SiempreViernes 4y ago
    Evading a punishment is pretty universally seen as a crime, not sure why you'd think otherwise.
    - iforgotpassword 4y ago
      Because it's a natural instinct to seek freedom. It's in human nature. Like, expecting a prisoner to keep sitting in their cell when suddenly all doors spring open is ridiculous.
      - throwoutway 4y ago
        Sure it’s a natural instinct, but society as a whole views it as ethically, morally, and legally “wrong”. We don’t allow individual’s selfish motives to rule society in other areas. Either way, the person I was responding to did not say it was a natural desire, they only said it was “not wrong”.
        iforgotpassword 4y ago
        I guess there are different levels on which you can look at this. If a rapist escapes from prison I certainly don't celebrate that. I want him to get captured again as quickly as possible. But I do not think it should add anything to his sentence, at least not for the attempt itself. If he hurt anyone, broke/stole something on his way out that's a different issue.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - 4y ago
- kwere 4y ago
  japanese democracy has a lot of "clauses"
CamperBob2 4y ago
I've read that Japanese prosecutors win something like 98% of the cases they bring. If true, it suggests that either they let a lot of crimes go unprosecuted in Japan, which doesn't ring true, or that their police have godlike powers of investigation and discernment (ditto), or that the adversarial court system really is a bit too adversarial from the defendant's point of view. So I can't say I wouldn't have done the same as Ghosn, given the necessary resources. Right or wrong wouldn't be a consideration, as long as I could rationalize an assumption of bad faith on the courts' part. Edit: I guess it could also suggest that the police in Japan are hopeless fuckups who only manage to catch the most flagrantly-incompetent criminals. That doesn't sound any more realistic than the other possibilities IMO.
- tptacek 4y ago
  It would be fucked up if prosecutors weren't winning well over 90% of their cases, because being prosecuted is a punishment in and of itself --- it's ruinously expensive. So you'd very much hope prosecution is reserved for slam-dunk cases, as federal prosecution is in the US, where prosecutors also have a ~95% success rate. They alternative, where prosecutors lose so many cases that their win rate goes down into the 70's or 60's, implies that prosecutors are taking lots of flyers just see how the cases shake out. That would be a tremendous abuse.
- labster 4y ago
  All of those options are true, but you forgot the forced confessions. 30 days detention before charging is long enough for the bruises to heal. On the other hand, they prosecute far less crime across all categories than in the United States. The staff of prosecutors is much smaller in Japan, so it likely means they mostly prosecute the winnable cases. In contrast in the US, a district attorney might choose to prosecute cases which make themself more electable.
- RajT88 4y ago
  From what I've read, I suspect both those things are true: lots of crimes go unprosecuted, as well as the police having godlike powers. But - FWIW - prosecutors in the US tend to have win rates north of 90% as well. 98% is excessively high, yes, but we're talking single digit percentages compared to a country with comparatively more crime.

by mrtksn 4y ago

throwoutway 4y ago

> it's not wrong to escape from prison. Uh, yes it is. Maybe if you’re imprisoned illegally (kidnapping or by kangaroo court) but in the general case—in a democracy with actual courts, it’s wrong. You think the cartel bosses that escaped from Mexico’s prisons were not morally and ethically wrong on multiple levels? Just because there’s also some corruption in the gov? Or because the prisons aren’t great. That’s unreasonable

collegeburner 4y ago
meh it's the shit that got them in there that was wrong. it may give us the justification to hold them prisoner but they still aren't morally required to not escape. like it's up to the judge what sentence they get so how could that even be a moral obligation?
mrtksn 4y ago
I think the burden for imprisonment and compelling people to stay in prison is on the punishers. That should not be confused with the crimes being wrong, I'm talking about ones desire not to be imprisoned being a natural desire and acting on it not being wrong by itself.
jokowueu 4y ago
There are major issues with Japan's justice system though . I mean just reading the link on this thread made me sad Michael Taylor. Mr. Taylor pleaded guilty to aiding Mr. Ghosn’s escape and started a two-year sentence at Tokyo’s Fuchu Prison in the summer of 2021; he spends much of his day in solitary confinement.
- exhilaration 4y ago
  Just in case the folks reading this comment don't see what's so bad about solitary confinement: Prolonged solitary confinement amounts to psychological torture, says UN expert https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/02/united-states-prolonged-solitary-confinement-amounts-psychological-torture https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/02/united-state...
snovv_crash 4y ago
I think the argument here is that being in prison is a bad experience and wanting to escape is normal, natural human behaviour. As such, the onus is not on the prisoner to stay inside, but on the guards to keep them there. Escaping is, as such, not a crime in itself.
- SiempreViernes 4y ago
  Evading a punishment is pretty universally seen as a crime, not sure why you'd think otherwise.
  - iforgotpassword 4y ago
    Because it's a natural instinct to seek freedom. It's in human nature. Like, expecting a prisoner to keep sitting in their cell when suddenly all doors spring open is ridiculous.
    - throwoutway 4y ago
      Sure it’s a natural instinct, but society as a whole views it as ethically, morally, and legally “wrong”. We don’t allow individual’s selfish motives to rule society in other areas. Either way, the person I was responding to did not say it was a natural desire, they only said it was “not wrong”.
      - iforgotpassword 4y ago
        I guess there are different levels on which you can look at this. If a rapist escapes from prison I certainly don't celebrate that. I want him to get captured again as quickly as possible. But I do not think it should add anything to his sentence, at least not for the attempt itself. If he hurt anyone, broke/stole something on his way out that's a different issue.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - 4y ago
kwere 4y ago
japanese democracy has a lot of "clauses"

CamperBob2 4y ago

I've read that Japanese prosecutors win something like 98% of the cases they bring. If true, it suggests that either they let a lot of crimes go unprosecuted in Japan, which doesn't ring true, or that their police have godlike powers of investigation and discernment (ditto), or that the adversarial court system really is a bit too adversarial from the defendant's point of view. So I can't say I wouldn't have done the same as Ghosn, given the necessary resources. Right or wrong wouldn't be a consideration, as long as I could rationalize an assumption of bad faith on the courts' part. Edit: I guess it could also suggest that the police in Japan are hopeless fuckups who only manage to catch the most flagrantly-incompetent criminals. That doesn't sound any more realistic than the other possibilities IMO.

tptacek 4y ago
It would be fucked up if prosecutors weren't winning well over 90% of their cases, because being prosecuted is a punishment in and of itself --- it's ruinously expensive. So you'd very much hope prosecution is reserved for slam-dunk cases, as federal prosecution is in the US, where prosecutors also have a ~95% success rate. They alternative, where prosecutors lose so many cases that their win rate goes down into the 70's or 60's, implies that prosecutors are taking lots of flyers just see how the cases shake out. That would be a tremendous abuse.
labster 4y ago
All of those options are true, but you forgot the forced confessions. 30 days detention before charging is long enough for the bruises to heal. On the other hand, they prosecute far less crime across all categories than in the United States. The staff of prosecutors is much smaller in Japan, so it likely means they mostly prosecute the winnable cases. In contrast in the US, a district attorney might choose to prosecute cases which make themself more electable.
RajT88 4y ago
From what I've read, I suspect both those things are true: lots of crimes go unprosecuted, as well as the police having godlike powers. But - FWIW - prosecutors in the US tend to have win rates north of 90% as well. 98% is excessively high, yes, but we're talking single digit percentages compared to a country with comparatively more crime.