5 ms·

Several complaints online about "forced diversity" on the casting, many relating it to Netflix's influences.

by htk 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
greymalik 4y ago
Gaiman has been pretty vocal [1] about his support for the casting: “Desire's nonbinary identification is so textual that one supporter asked Gaiman if he thought critics of these castings had even read The Sandman. "I don't think so, no," the author responded. When another asked, "Wasn't Desire… always non-binary…??," Gaiman replied, "Well, yes. But you'd have to have read the comics to know that. And the shouty people appear to have skipped that step.” [1] https://ew.com/tv/neil-gaiman-defends-the-sandman-casting-nonbinary-and-black-actors/ https://ew.com/tv/neil-gaiman-defends-the-sandman-casting-no...
- tialaramex 4y ago
  I'm going to guess that a bunch of people don't like the choice for Death. But the thing about Death is that she's such the archetype that from then until now you could never move at a goth club for all the women who are sure they're Death. Like, try announcing from the DJ booth, "Has anybody lost a silver ankh?" and watch like two dozen women glance down between their boobs to check theirs is still hanging around their neck. In the comic book you can just draw a goth chick, and a million women say "That's me" and you move on. But if you actually cast any of the women who'd like to think that's them it's not going to make anybody happy. She ceases to be "Everyman" well, every-goth-chick and becomes a specific individual. So I think you probably specifically don't want to cast Death for resemblance to that image, much more than his other siblings. Actually I'd be tempted to cast Brad Pitt, and be like yeah what? But Brad is a bit old and a bit expensive, and that involves rewriting some stuff, so, sure, Kirby Howell-Baptiste, why not? Personally I think Brad's accent would have thrown me off more than Kirby not having pasty white skin.
  - kleer001 4y ago
    Huge fan of the comics since they were released and have bought both seasons of the audio dramas and my only complaint is the apparent older age and no-fun-ness of Death in the trailers. I thought the original author's intention was to have a young and indefatigable character play the embodiment of the end of all things as a light irony and existential cotton candy balance to the grim reality of the job. But I'll hold my real opinion until I see the whole show. If I don't hear a bubbly "Peachy-keen!" I'll probably just sigh and roll my eyes. It's only TV. If I want the old thing I'll just reread the comics again.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Death is the most faithfully adapted character in the whole show, so if someone's complaining about that, they're telling on themselves. They nailed Death. I was pleasantly surprised by that; there's a (somewhat well-regarded) audiobook adaptation of the books, with James McAvoy as Morpheus and Kat Dennings (the older daughter in 40 Year Old Virgin, and, by appearances, a straight-out-of-central-casting choice for Death), and Death does not work at all in it.
    - taeric 4y ago
      I've enjoyed both. Curious what makes the audio not work for you.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        I thought it was simultaneously kind of over- and under- acted. But I've only gotten through Preludes and Doll's House.
        taeric 4y ago
        Certainly fair. I'm guessing I like it more just for how surprised I was that it was a good audiobook.
        4y ago
- brazzy 4y ago
  I really don't think it's Desire anyone is annoyed about, and using that as an example to dismiss the criticism only weakens the dismissal. Lucifer... sure, he's canonically without genitals anyway and decidedly uninterested in things like gender norms - and I'm actually excited to see Gwendolyn Christie portray the character. Casting a black woman as Death goes directly against Gaiman's explicitly stated concept of how he imagined the character, and while she wears many guises, it seems wrong to just break the visual similarity (paleness) between the Endless. I really, really hope the actress can transport the character's essence (IMO first and foremost a kind of universial compassion and humor) sufficiently to make it not matter. And then Lucien as a black woman... was that really necessary? At some point it just feels forced.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Lucifer is the only casting so far that hasn’t resonated with me. She felt more like a corporate CEO than fallen angel. And the stereotypical bat wings… meh The rest have done really well, even Death (who I didn’t get good vibes from in the lead up). EDIT: Despair didn’t do much for me either. More emo teen than avatar of suffering.
  - cgrealy 4y ago
    Gaiman has publicly stated that he loves the actress as Death. Someone then complained about disrespecting the artist and the model, and the artist responded he loved it too (the model has passed, but the artist, who was a close friend, said she would have loved it as well). I did watch that clip from The Sound of Her Wings, and I thought she nailed the kindness aspect of Death. I do hope we'll also get some of fun, hopeful aspects too, but I haven't got t othose episodes yet.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - cgrealy 4y ago
    Oh and Lucien as a black woman... I ask why not? How does it hurt the character? The actor playing Lucien is is perfectly fine, so why not add some more diversity to the cast?
simonh 4y ago
Have any of these people actually read the graphic novels? They’re chock full of trans, non-binary, race swapping characters. Playing with the fluidity of identity is a persistent theme.
- powerhour 4y ago
  It doesn't matter. If anyone outside the "norm" is included, a group of folks online will be angry about it. They're a minority and can safely be ignored (and probably about other topics as well).
Kaze404 4y ago
There are two genders: "man" and "political" /s
goto11 4y ago
Presumably complaint by people who haven't read the comic?
throwaway24532 4y ago

Several complaints online about "forced diversity" on the casting, many relating it to Netflix's influences.

by htk 4y ago

Several complaints online about "forced diversity" on the casting, many relating it to Netflix's influences.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

greymalik 4y ago

Gaiman has been pretty vocal [1] about his support for the casting: “Desire's nonbinary identification is so textual that one supporter asked Gaiman if he thought critics of these castings had even read The Sandman. "I don't think so, no," the author responded. When another asked, "Wasn't Desire… always non-binary…??," Gaiman replied, "Well, yes. But you'd have to have read the comics to know that. And the shouty people appear to have skipped that step.” [1] https://ew.com/tv/neil-gaiman-defends-the-sandman-casting-nonbinary-and-black-actors/ https://ew.com/tv/neil-gaiman-defends-the-sandman-casting-no...

tialaramex 4y ago
I'm going to guess that a bunch of people don't like the choice for Death. But the thing about Death is that she's such the archetype that from then until now you could never move at a goth club for all the women who are sure they're Death. Like, try announcing from the DJ booth, "Has anybody lost a silver ankh?" and watch like two dozen women glance down between their boobs to check theirs is still hanging around their neck. In the comic book you can just draw a goth chick, and a million women say "That's me" and you move on. But if you actually cast any of the women who'd like to think that's them it's not going to make anybody happy. She ceases to be "Everyman" well, every-goth-chick and becomes a specific individual. So I think you probably specifically don't want to cast Death for resemblance to that image, much more than his other siblings. Actually I'd be tempted to cast Brad Pitt, and be like yeah what? But Brad is a bit old and a bit expensive, and that involves rewriting some stuff, so, sure, Kirby Howell-Baptiste, why not? Personally I think Brad's accent would have thrown me off more than Kirby not having pasty white skin.
- kleer001 4y ago
  Huge fan of the comics since they were released and have bought both seasons of the audio dramas and my only complaint is the apparent older age and no-fun-ness of Death in the trailers. I thought the original author's intention was to have a young and indefatigable character play the embodiment of the end of all things as a light irony and existential cotton candy balance to the grim reality of the job. But I'll hold my real opinion until I see the whole show. If I don't hear a bubbly "Peachy-keen!" I'll probably just sigh and roll my eyes. It's only TV. If I want the old thing I'll just reread the comics again.
- tptacek 4y ago
  Death is the most faithfully adapted character in the whole show, so if someone's complaining about that, they're telling on themselves. They nailed Death. I was pleasantly surprised by that; there's a (somewhat well-regarded) audiobook adaptation of the books, with James McAvoy as Morpheus and Kat Dennings (the older daughter in 40 Year Old Virgin, and, by appearances, a straight-out-of-central-casting choice for Death), and Death does not work at all in it.
  - taeric 4y ago
    I've enjoyed both. Curious what makes the audio not work for you.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      I thought it was simultaneously kind of over- and under- acted. But I've only gotten through Preludes and Doll's House.
      - taeric 4y ago
        Certainly fair. I'm guessing I like it more just for how surprised I was that it was a good audiobook.
        4y ago
brazzy 4y ago
I really don't think it's Desire anyone is annoyed about, and using that as an example to dismiss the criticism only weakens the dismissal. Lucifer... sure, he's canonically without genitals anyway and decidedly uninterested in things like gender norms - and I'm actually excited to see Gwendolyn Christie portray the character. Casting a black woman as Death goes directly against Gaiman's explicitly stated concept of how he imagined the character, and while she wears many guises, it seems wrong to just break the visual similarity (paleness) between the Endless. I really, really hope the actress can transport the character's essence (IMO first and foremost a kind of universial compassion and humor) sufficiently to make it not matter. And then Lucien as a black woman... was that really necessary? At some point it just feels forced.
- falcolas 4y ago
  Lucifer is the only casting so far that hasn’t resonated with me. She felt more like a corporate CEO than fallen angel. And the stereotypical bat wings… meh The rest have done really well, even Death (who I didn’t get good vibes from in the lead up). EDIT: Despair didn’t do much for me either. More emo teen than avatar of suffering.
- cgrealy 4y ago
  Gaiman has publicly stated that he loves the actress as Death. Someone then complained about disrespecting the artist and the model, and the artist responded he loved it too (the model has passed, but the artist, who was a close friend, said she would have loved it as well). I did watch that clip from The Sound of Her Wings, and I thought she nailed the kindness aspect of Death. I do hope we'll also get some of fun, hopeful aspects too, but I haven't got t othose episodes yet.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- cgrealy 4y ago
  Oh and Lucien as a black woman... I ask why not? How does it hurt the character? The actor playing Lucien is is perfectly fine, so why not add some more diversity to the cast?

simonh 4y ago

Have any of these people actually read the graphic novels? They’re chock full of trans, non-binary, race swapping characters. Playing with the fluidity of identity is a persistent theme.

powerhour 4y ago
It doesn't matter. If anyone outside the "norm" is included, a group of folks online will be angry about it. They're a minority and can safely be ignored (and probably about other topics as well).

Kaze404 4y ago

There are two genders: "man" and "political" /s

goto11 4y ago

Presumably complaint by people who haven't read the comic?

throwaway24532 4y ago