10 ms·

Obesity Is Now the Top Modifiable Dementia Risk Factor in the US

45 points by cwwc 4y ago

camillomiller 4y ago
As a very open-minded, progressive, pro gender revolution, LGBTQ individual, I just can’t wrap my head around the fat pride movements. News like this reinforce my opinion that they are plainly dangerous to public health. One thing is to be accepting of a non-standard body, even including some degrees of extra weight, but justifying obesity is very different.
- throwaway5959 4y ago
  I think the fat pride movement is garbage myself, but no one needs to “justify” their obesity.
- n8cpdx 4y ago
  Completely agree, even as someone who has struggled with obesity and continues to struggle with overweight. But there is an important nuance. In many if not most cases, obesity is really a behavioral health issue, and feelings of shame make it so much harder to deal with that productively. If overeating is a maladaptive strategy to negative emotions, walking around feeling shame and embarrassment all the time makes that so much harder. So fat pride isn’t great, but fat acceptance, to one degree or another, may be productive. It really should be something more like how society is moving to treat depression - an unfortunate thing that happens and requires treatment, but not necessarily a flaw that makes someone a bad person. The current stigmatization around obese people is that they are seen as stupid, lazy, gross, and generally bad, inferior people. Even as a recovering fat person, who knows it’s wrong, it is hard to overcome the implicit bias. If you want to feel angry, listen to this Vox Conversations episode: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vdGhlZXpyYWtsZWluc2hvdw/episode/MmQyN2E2MDgtNTIxYy0xMWVjLWI5MTYtMTdkYTI2NTM1ODlh?sa=X&ved=0CAYQkfYCahcKEwiAzMnJr7X5AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQDg https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGh...
  - throwaway5959 4y ago
    - arbitrage 4y ago
      > How do you justify that to yourself? Fat people often smell really bad, but they don't realize it. That's one way to justify hating someone you haven't met, yet.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - n8cpdx 4y ago
      Please research implicit bias. Also, please recognize that “hard to overcome” implies an effort to overcome and recognize that that thinking is wrong. If I had to justify it, I would say that I have been conditioned over the course of 20+ years and continue to be conditioned to see non-fat people as desirable and fatness as gross. And to some degree it is rational - fat people are more likely to die young, experience health issues, struggle with hygiene or everyday activities; all things you don’t want in yourself, your partner, or people you rely on. It’s also clearly a mental health issue, which comes with its own stigmas. It takes time to overcome and unlearn all of that.
  - onos 4y ago
    Helpful comment as I had assumed that more social stigma would definitely lower obesity prevalence.
  - filoleg 4y ago
    The "fat acceptance" definition you use, I can totally get behind that. No one should be shamed for being depressed or being fat, they deserve support and help, as well as being treated as a normal human being deserving the same respect as everyone else. However, the issue is that a lot of times when someone says "fat acceptance", they mean it in a sense of accepting that being extremely overweight can be totally healthy and fine. With a giant dose of anti-doctor sentiment mixed in, because "i know more than doctors because I use google to find other opinions supporting my current opinion". If we want "fat acceptance" to be taken seriously, there needs to be a clear line drawn between those two usages of the term. The one you propose (aka the one in my first paragraph) is extremely reasonable and humane, and should be taken seriously. While the one I mentioned in my second paragraph should be separated as far as possible from that term. It just taints the definition you propose and makes people take it less seriously, which slows down the needle of progress that your definition is supposed to accomplish.
- noarchy 4y ago
  I've never heard of things like alcoholism pride, for instance (maybe I'm wrong). What makes obesity so different that it gets these defenders, despite the indisputable link with a wide array of health issues?
  - skywhopper 4y ago
    If you think obesity and alcoholism have remotely the same level of risk, you are woefully misinformed. The people you call “defenders” are simply asking to be treated like humans. The biggest health issue for obese individuals isn’t their obesity, but the fact that most doctors refuse to treat their health issues directly, and instead blame every problem on the patient’s weight, without providing any solution.
    - caminante 4y ago
      > without providing any solution False dichotomy. If the stats show that being overweight increases your risk "X-fold", I promise the doctor is suggesting weight loss, which is at least a partial solution.
  - Jensson 4y ago
    Its a gender thing. When men have problems we tell them to fix it, when women have problems we are told to sympathize with them. Alcoholism is mostly a male issue while obesity is gender neutral and hence includes a lot of women.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    People with alcohol problems will often say "yeah, but I'm not an alcoholic", as if there's some magic line that you can cross that suddenly means it's bad for you, and if you have one drink less you're fine, when really that line starts at the first drink. This is one of the reasons, people are moving away from the term, and using "unhealthy alcohol use" as a term for the condition, and also “a person with an alcohol use disorder” or “a person with a drug use disorder" rather than alcoholic or addict.
    - 4y ago
- FFRefresh 4y ago
  I agree, but I think they are linked. Culturally, the 'pro gender revolution, LGBTQ' movements and the fat pride movement (amongst other movements) are part of the same underlying thrust of our society. The basis is the idea that the individual should be free to be/do whatever they want (especially wrt themselves/bodies), and it's oppressive to have social norms/laws which restrict or even make the individual feel bad for being as they 'truly' are. To suggest a way of living is not ideal (even with solid utilitarian arguments) for a set of individuals can be considered oppressive, as you are saying who they are is somehow not good enough. The individuals sense of themself and their feelings are tantamount in a culture so centered on the individual. On a slightly related note, it does seem like our culture is also moving away from believing humans have free will. A lot of maladaptive states (from a utilitarian perspective) that humans can be in are increasingly described as 'unfortunate'/'unlucky' things that 'happen' to them. This relates to the sense of oppression for social norms that would suggest one way of being/living is not good - "How dare you say my current state is bad, I can't control that!"
  - Jach 4y ago
    Indeed, the National Association to Aid Fat Americans (NAAFA), now the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance, was founded in 1969. In 1973, an activist group "Fat Underground" had a manifesto that included "We see our struggle as allied with the struggles of other oppressed groups against classism, racism, sexism, ageism, capitalism, imperialism, and the like." Since at least the 80s, fat people have used the phrasings of "coming out as fat" / "come out of the closet" to mean their acceptance of their bodies/not finding fatness offensive/no longer stressing about dieting. What's interesting is the question of agency getting tied up with fatness in the first place. There have been times even not that long ago that being fat was considered a sign of success. There were even these "Fat Men's Clubs" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_men%27s_club https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_men%27s_club) of rich and fat businessmen celebrating their weight and eating a lot. But then fatness became bad, marking a lack of agency, and acquired other negative aspects like being greedy (contra magnanimous) and stupid and having 0 sex appeal (contra, say, the Venus of Willendorf, though you don't really need to go back that far), and being unhealthy, and being an overall burden to society whether it comes to airplane seats or healthcare costs. Since dieting/keeping slim in the face of our modern abundance is now considered a mark of successful exercise of agency, fat acceptance types have to somehow decouple their eating behavior from their weight, if they want to maintain some semblance of agency here. (Despite the way our culture seems to be moving I still think most people want to maintain an idea of agency, even if that's in going against what it means to be agent-y.) So sure the 'fatness' is something that just happens to them, like being tall or short, it's not even unlucky really, and it's pretty much impossible to change in the long term anyway (with even some science backing up the failures of long-term weight loss after dieting). However they can twist it, the goal is to be free from the moral failing/agency failing concern that they're not acting in responsible/good ways. They can still be considered good in other ways. And now that they're no longer preoccupied with their "exercising agency" failings from fruitless dieting and what have you, they begin to exercise more agency! Check out this cover letter from 1981 by Wilma Kuns on how she was able to start living her life once she accepted her fat: https://naafa.org/s/Nov-Dec_1981.pdf https://naafa.org/s/Nov-Dec_1981.pdf I think it's pretty typical, even today, and sure is reminiscent of other groups' "coming out" expressions of exuberance. Instances of exercising agency can be as simple as throwing out a scale, or a sense of a new-found ability to actually make choices and decisions (the foundation of agency) for things like clothing, sex (either feeling able to pursue it at all without feeling disgusted in themselves/partner, or being able to say 'no' and not just take what they can get), or doing activities or working jobs they wanted to do but were previously afraid of suffering social ridicule for. Having a bit of self-confidence feels like an agency booster, so of course removing this constant "you're fat and unworthy of life/fair treatment/love/health/..." mentality helps, regardless of whether it's rationally backed or not. But it also gives a sense of agency in another way: exercising resistance, namely to society's (or some segment of society's) ideas of what it means to be healthy and beautiful. There's a lot of this form of agency these days. It's rather amusing that such acts of agency still reinforce the overall societal demand for agency, for distinguishing yourself as an individual making choices and pursuing what you think of as your idea of success.
- skywhopper 4y ago
  - hgomersall 4y ago
    I feel the point is more nuanced than you suggest. Clearly, nobody should be made to feel shit because they are overweight, but that's quite different from being actively proud of being overweight. It feels like a fine line to walk - making sure people feel happy and confident in who they are, but at the same time empowered and supported to make life improving decisions without feeling they're "letting the side down".
    - camillomiller 4y ago
      This. I absolutely didn’t suggest anything like what the above comment projected and implied.
  - samatman 4y ago
    Public health is just an aggregation of facts about individual health right? Leaving aside the enormously important exception of epidemiology. Obese people have poor health outcomes, which harms them. Insofar as it's meaningful to even say "harming public health", this harms public health. But since a collection of data is hard to harm, I think this framing is unhelpful.
- swatcoder 4y ago
  It helps to think of it as one of many movements resistant to health and longevity becoming entrenched as a universal moral standard. Some people think that there are more important values in life than those things, and don’t want to have to fight for their right to live by those other values. Here, it’s a right to eat and be active in the way they want, for whatever reasons they want, without having to answer to someone else’s concern over their health or longevity.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    There's a big difference between "I should have the right to do X" and "other people should be supportive of me if I choose to do X".
- Tokkemon 4y ago
  Thank you for thoroughly othering me. I didn't do anything to you.
- boopmaster 4y ago
  Correct, there's that line where the body shaming and bullying are more likely to make the fatties go back inside, not get in the pool, and skip participation. That was me in school. I would not have had such issues with weight had it not been repeatedly and antagonistically drawn to attention, and used as an excuse to exclude or diminish my personhood.
  - camillomiller 4y ago
    Fair point, but I’m in no way suggesting that it’s ok to bully fat people or not help them overcome their self-acceptance issues. But it self-acceptance is prioritized over fixing an objective health issue (obesity, not being a bit overweight), then it becomes a problem.
    - boopmaster 4y ago
      It’s complicated! Ha. Yeah I mean there’s no value in harassing an individual at all about their fat pride, when they are not responsible for but most likely victims of society… a society that positions cheap and unhealthy food options at every corner. Be mad at McDonald’s. Be mad at Family Dollar. Be mad at bullies. And be made about fat pride too, that we as people have created the conditions that have been so toxic to some people that almost by necessity they inoculate themselves from horrible attitudes that have never helped them in the slightest.
      - camillomiller 4y ago
        Very good points. But frankly, this is Capitalism self-preservation in action. Convincing people of being proud of whoever they are is easier than fixing a systemic issue created by greedy corporations. It’s like prioritizing personal responsibility as a sustainability policy. It’s easier to buy into an ecological lifestyle (put down that plastic straw!) than fixing the systemic underlying issues through which big corporations generate profits.
- MrRiddle 4y ago
  Exactly how I feel about gender revolution. Mental illness is not something to be proud about and is dangerous to public health.
ipnon 4y ago
It seems public healthcare is not feasible in the United States while the majority of Americans are overweight and a third are obese. It causes too many expensive health problems that are preventable by maintaining a healthy weight. Perhaps the government should simply pay people to keep their BMI under 25.
- throwaway5959 4y ago
  Oh well thanks for solving the problem there chief. Who knew you only had to pay people to lose weight. Edit: Downvote me all you want, these are just stupid internet points. But what the guy/gal said was offensive to anyone who’s struggled with weight loss. Edit 2: Sounds like I should really lose some weight before I interview.
  - brianwawok 4y ago
    Why? I’ve been heavy. I’ve been light. Burn more calories than you consume and you lose weight. I don’t think it’s fair others should need to pay more for my healthcare if I choose to use my American freedom to be heavy?
    - throwaway5959 4y ago
      That’s not what OP said, they said the government should pay people to lose weight. As if getting a $100 check in the mail each month would change people’s behavior. It just lacks any real understanding of why people are overweight to begin with.
      - throwaway98797 4y ago
        they don’t want it enough money is a motivator losing weight sucks because the changes are slow weekly payments could help with motivation this would create a dystopian nightmare but people would be thinner
      - mjthrowaway1 4y ago
        Money is a huge motivator. Aside from the fact that $100 check every month can directly subsidize healthier food choices.
giaour 4y ago
> evaluated the relative contribution of 8 modifiable risk factors—physical inactivity, current smoking, depression, low education, diabetes, midlife obesity, midlife hypertension, and hearing loss—to ADRD risk How are depression and hearing loss modifiable? Is the implication that untreated depression or not using hearing aids is a dementia risk?
- ChrstnBonanno 4y ago
  Since someone may not have access to hearing or may not be able to get treatment for depression, they are modifiable risks.
- sva_ 4y ago
  You can clearly do something about depression, and hearing loss is also closely tied to lifestyle choices[0]. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3208793/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3208793/
  - giaour 4y ago
    I guess I was drawing a false distinction between things modifiable via medical intervention and things modifiable via lifestyle modification. The relevant thing must be that you have a condition, not what could be done about it, and there's clearly some overlap between the two categories (e.g., obesity).
- josephcsible 4y ago
  Both depression and hearing loss have treatments. Also, hearing loss can be prevented by, e.g., wearing earplugs when around very loud noises.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
newaccount2021 4y ago
A (record?) 92% of Americans now have some form of health insurance (Biden tweeted this last week) Yet our life expectancy continues to decline Its obesity No amount of healthcare access can save those determined to stay obese
shrubble 4y ago
It's not the corn, it's the soy and other high PUFA oils that are added to everything. But soy is a rotation crop for corn and instead of feeding it to animals it gets used in the human diet.
- wyre 4y ago
  No. 77% of soy is fed to livestock. https://ourworldindata.org/soy https://ourworldindata.org/soy Japan has one of the highest rates of soy consumption in the world and they also have some of the least obesity and the longest lifespans so I fail to see how soy is problematic in increasing obesity.
  - shrubble 4y ago
    Japanese ferment their soybeans when eaten as food - this fermentation chemically changes it. However, I was referring to the soybean oil. Soybean oil is not used in cooking inside the Japanese home, but used for fast food/restaurant cooking. https://www.world-grain.com/articles/16740-soybean-oil-demand-spikes-in-japan-following-covid-19 https://www.world-grain.com/articles/16740-soybean-oil-deman... Next time you get virtually any salad dressing or even a non-sriracha hot sauce such as that served in little packets from e.g. Wendy's or McDonald's, you will find soybean oil as one of the ingredients. Soybean oil is nearly impossible to avoid if you are eating out; and it is found in a lot of other foods such as salad dressing, etc. I would encourage you on your next trip to supermarket to make note of how many processed foods contain soybean oil. Only good quality olive oil is free from PUFAs among the various vegetable oils. (edited for clarity)
    - wyre 4y ago
      The Japanese eat soy in more forms than nattō and soy sauce. If your point was blaming soybean oil say that instead of a blanket statement that soy causes obesity.
0xcde4c3db 4y ago
Is anyone seriously engaging with the question of what to do about obesity from a public health standpoint instead of riding their dietary/urban planning/economic hobby horse or coming up with yet another vacuous PR campaign to promote "healthy choices"? As far as I've been able to find, there are zero examples of countries with an obesity epidemic that have managed to even halt it, let alone reverse it. Every major explanation of the epidemic I've seen fails to actually fit the data, often blatantly so (e.g. blaming things that spiked well before the epidemic in a given population, or trends that flattened or reversed decades ago while obesity continues to rise). It feels like we're either not even trying, or are ruinously confused about what we're up against.
- intothemild 4y ago
  I remember reading a Twitter thread (i know) where someone who's done a book or something on this subject realized that all the studies bacically say the same thing. Nobody knows the reason, but the data all shows when it started. https://twitter.com/mold_time/status/1412827749828513800?t=eK_XL4E6GoAhLTmuZWrs4Q&s=19 https://twitter.com/mold_time/status/1412827749828513800?t=e...
  - tomjen3 4y ago
    There is only one reason possible: we eat more than we need. A lot more. Why we do this is maybe up for debate (personally my guess is because we can and food is tasty), but the basics of thermodynamics is not up for debate.
    - boatsie 4y ago
      This is an annoying take that comes up every time. It’s like saying people die because a critical organ stops functioning. It adds nothing to the discourse and tends to imply that it’s lack of will power.
      - filoleg 4y ago
        How is this analogy even supposed to work? When you eat too much, you can choose to eat less. When your critical organ is about to stop functioning, what can you even do? Use that organ less? Either I am missing something major in that analogy, or it is just bad.
armchairhacker 4y ago
Why are so many people obese? Do that many people just not know better? I know some people really have no idea how calories work but I see obese smart people who should know better. Do people just not care? I understand some people not caring, like computer scientists or “manly” men. But even they should understand that obesity is really bad for health and QOL. They don’t have to become normal weight either: being overweight doesn’t have the negative physical and mental health effects, but they are obese to the point where it does affect those things. Are they hungry? I get this part. I’ve experienced real hunger and it’s not the “just wait until dinner” kind. I could never maintain a normal weight if I had to endure constant hunger and the effects associated with it (low energy, brain fog, mood dysregulation - these are very real things people experience when not eating enough, and which fat people experience even when eating enough when they have hormonal issues). Except, obese people also eat junk food which makes you more hungry. If it was hunger I would expect to see more people eating large plates of protein and vegetables, but it seems like even with CICO most people just don’t get fat on protein and vegetables. Do whole foods just not satiate? Or do people not understand which foods make you feel full, which make you satisfied, and which make you satisfied while tasting good (skinless chicken breast and raw salads with no dressing are not good meals). I don’t have anything against obese people. But supposedly over 40% of Americans are obese, and many are obese in other countries. This is very strange and honestly depressing. Maybe it’s because I live in communities where less people are obese (college towns and a suburban community in a very blue state), because indeed while I see obese people it seems like way less than 40%. Particularly depressing is child obesity, which is really strange because kids tend to have higher metabolisms and even skinny kids’ diets are really junky. I think most people would really like to be not obese, and if those people could lose weight with low effort it would be a huge benefit to them and society. So it’s important to understand why so many people are obese. Because like I said, 40% are obese despite most knowing better, and a lot of people seem to be like “yeah”.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  Isn't it pretty simple? Our brains release dopamine whenever we eat, and a lot of people lack the self-control to not overeat to get more hits.
mbrodersen 4y ago
A bit of science: Prof. Richard Johnson - 'Nature Wants Us To Be Fat': https://youtu.be/gAjC_BWMElk https://youtu.be/gAjC_BWMElk https://youtu.be/gl-Ugeau8mU https://youtu.be/gl-Ugeau8mU https://youtu.be/UTDWAN1G-nk https://youtu.be/UTDWAN1G-nk

45 points by cwwc 4y ago

As a very open-minded, progressive, pro gender revolution, LGBTQ individual, I just can’t wrap my head around the fat pride movements. News like this reinforce my opinion that they are plainly dangerous to public health. One thing is to be accepting of a non-standard body, even including some degrees of extra weight, but justifying obesity is very different.

throwaway5959 4y ago
I think the fat pride movement is garbage myself, but no one needs to “justify” their obesity.
n8cpdx 4y ago
Completely agree, even as someone who has struggled with obesity and continues to struggle with overweight. But there is an important nuance. In many if not most cases, obesity is really a behavioral health issue, and feelings of shame make it so much harder to deal with that productively. If overeating is a maladaptive strategy to negative emotions, walking around feeling shame and embarrassment all the time makes that so much harder. So fat pride isn’t great, but fat acceptance, to one degree or another, may be productive. It really should be something more like how society is moving to treat depression - an unfortunate thing that happens and requires treatment, but not necessarily a flaw that makes someone a bad person. The current stigmatization around obese people is that they are seen as stupid, lazy, gross, and generally bad, inferior people. Even as a recovering fat person, who knows it’s wrong, it is hard to overcome the implicit bias. If you want to feel angry, listen to this Vox Conversations episode: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGhvbmUuZm0vdGhlZXpyYWtsZWluc2hvdw/episode/MmQyN2E2MDgtNTIxYy0xMWVjLWI5MTYtMTdkYTI2NTM1ODlh?sa=X&ved=0CAYQkfYCahcKEwiAzMnJr7X5AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQDg https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5tZWdhcGh...
- throwaway5959 4y ago
  - arbitrage 4y ago
    > How do you justify that to yourself? Fat people often smell really bad, but they don't realize it. That's one way to justify hating someone you haven't met, yet.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - n8cpdx 4y ago
    Please research implicit bias. Also, please recognize that “hard to overcome” implies an effort to overcome and recognize that that thinking is wrong. If I had to justify it, I would say that I have been conditioned over the course of 20+ years and continue to be conditioned to see non-fat people as desirable and fatness as gross. And to some degree it is rational - fat people are more likely to die young, experience health issues, struggle with hygiene or everyday activities; all things you don’t want in yourself, your partner, or people you rely on. It’s also clearly a mental health issue, which comes with its own stigmas. It takes time to overcome and unlearn all of that.
- onos 4y ago
  Helpful comment as I had assumed that more social stigma would definitely lower obesity prevalence.
- filoleg 4y ago
  The "fat acceptance" definition you use, I can totally get behind that. No one should be shamed for being depressed or being fat, they deserve support and help, as well as being treated as a normal human being deserving the same respect as everyone else. However, the issue is that a lot of times when someone says "fat acceptance", they mean it in a sense of accepting that being extremely overweight can be totally healthy and fine. With a giant dose of anti-doctor sentiment mixed in, because "i know more than doctors because I use google to find other opinions supporting my current opinion". If we want "fat acceptance" to be taken seriously, there needs to be a clear line drawn between those two usages of the term. The one you propose (aka the one in my first paragraph) is extremely reasonable and humane, and should be taken seriously. While the one I mentioned in my second paragraph should be separated as far as possible from that term. It just taints the definition you propose and makes people take it less seriously, which slows down the needle of progress that your definition is supposed to accomplish.
noarchy 4y ago
I've never heard of things like alcoholism pride, for instance (maybe I'm wrong). What makes obesity so different that it gets these defenders, despite the indisputable link with a wide array of health issues?
- skywhopper 4y ago
  If you think obesity and alcoholism have remotely the same level of risk, you are woefully misinformed. The people you call “defenders” are simply asking to be treated like humans. The biggest health issue for obese individuals isn’t their obesity, but the fact that most doctors refuse to treat their health issues directly, and instead blame every problem on the patient’s weight, without providing any solution.
  - caminante 4y ago
    > without providing any solution False dichotomy. If the stats show that being overweight increases your risk "X-fold", I promise the doctor is suggesting weight loss, which is at least a partial solution.
- Jensson 4y ago
  Its a gender thing. When men have problems we tell them to fix it, when women have problems we are told to sympathize with them. Alcoholism is mostly a male issue while obesity is gender neutral and hence includes a lot of women.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  People with alcohol problems will often say "yeah, but I'm not an alcoholic", as if there's some magic line that you can cross that suddenly means it's bad for you, and if you have one drink less you're fine, when really that line starts at the first drink. This is one of the reasons, people are moving away from the term, and using "unhealthy alcohol use" as a term for the condition, and also “a person with an alcohol use disorder” or “a person with a drug use disorder" rather than alcoholic or addict.
  - 4y ago
FFRefresh 4y ago
I agree, but I think they are linked. Culturally, the 'pro gender revolution, LGBTQ' movements and the fat pride movement (amongst other movements) are part of the same underlying thrust of our society. The basis is the idea that the individual should be free to be/do whatever they want (especially wrt themselves/bodies), and it's oppressive to have social norms/laws which restrict or even make the individual feel bad for being as they 'truly' are. To suggest a way of living is not ideal (even with solid utilitarian arguments) for a set of individuals can be considered oppressive, as you are saying who they are is somehow not good enough. The individuals sense of themself and their feelings are tantamount in a culture so centered on the individual. On a slightly related note, it does seem like our culture is also moving away from believing humans have free will. A lot of maladaptive states (from a utilitarian perspective) that humans can be in are increasingly described as 'unfortunate'/'unlucky' things that 'happen' to them. This relates to the sense of oppression for social norms that would suggest one way of being/living is not good - "How dare you say my current state is bad, I can't control that!"
- Jach 4y ago
  Indeed, the National Association to Aid Fat Americans (NAAFA), now the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance, was founded in 1969. In 1973, an activist group "Fat Underground" had a manifesto that included "We see our struggle as allied with the struggles of other oppressed groups against classism, racism, sexism, ageism, capitalism, imperialism, and the like." Since at least the 80s, fat people have used the phrasings of "coming out as fat" / "come out of the closet" to mean their acceptance of their bodies/not finding fatness offensive/no longer stressing about dieting. What's interesting is the question of agency getting tied up with fatness in the first place. There have been times even not that long ago that being fat was considered a sign of success. There were even these "Fat Men's Clubs" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_men%27s_club https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_men%27s_club) of rich and fat businessmen celebrating their weight and eating a lot. But then fatness became bad, marking a lack of agency, and acquired other negative aspects like being greedy (contra magnanimous) and stupid and having 0 sex appeal (contra, say, the Venus of Willendorf, though you don't really need to go back that far), and being unhealthy, and being an overall burden to society whether it comes to airplane seats or healthcare costs. Since dieting/keeping slim in the face of our modern abundance is now considered a mark of successful exercise of agency, fat acceptance types have to somehow decouple their eating behavior from their weight, if they want to maintain some semblance of agency here. (Despite the way our culture seems to be moving I still think most people want to maintain an idea of agency, even if that's in going against what it means to be agent-y.) So sure the 'fatness' is something that just happens to them, like being tall or short, it's not even unlucky really, and it's pretty much impossible to change in the long term anyway (with even some science backing up the failures of long-term weight loss after dieting). However they can twist it, the goal is to be free from the moral failing/agency failing concern that they're not acting in responsible/good ways. They can still be considered good in other ways. And now that they're no longer preoccupied with their "exercising agency" failings from fruitless dieting and what have you, they begin to exercise more agency! Check out this cover letter from 1981 by Wilma Kuns on how she was able to start living her life once she accepted her fat: https://naafa.org/s/Nov-Dec_1981.pdf https://naafa.org/s/Nov-Dec_1981.pdf I think it's pretty typical, even today, and sure is reminiscent of other groups' "coming out" expressions of exuberance. Instances of exercising agency can be as simple as throwing out a scale, or a sense of a new-found ability to actually make choices and decisions (the foundation of agency) for things like clothing, sex (either feeling able to pursue it at all without feeling disgusted in themselves/partner, or being able to say 'no' and not just take what they can get), or doing activities or working jobs they wanted to do but were previously afraid of suffering social ridicule for. Having a bit of self-confidence feels like an agency booster, so of course removing this constant "you're fat and unworthy of life/fair treatment/love/health/..." mentality helps, regardless of whether it's rationally backed or not. But it also gives a sense of agency in another way: exercising resistance, namely to society's (or some segment of society's) ideas of what it means to be healthy and beautiful. There's a lot of this form of agency these days. It's rather amusing that such acts of agency still reinforce the overall societal demand for agency, for distinguishing yourself as an individual making choices and pursuing what you think of as your idea of success.
skywhopper 4y ago
- hgomersall 4y ago
  I feel the point is more nuanced than you suggest. Clearly, nobody should be made to feel shit because they are overweight, but that's quite different from being actively proud of being overweight. It feels like a fine line to walk - making sure people feel happy and confident in who they are, but at the same time empowered and supported to make life improving decisions without feeling they're "letting the side down".
  - camillomiller 4y ago
    This. I absolutely didn’t suggest anything like what the above comment projected and implied.
- samatman 4y ago
  Public health is just an aggregation of facts about individual health right? Leaving aside the enormously important exception of epidemiology. Obese people have poor health outcomes, which harms them. Insofar as it's meaningful to even say "harming public health", this harms public health. But since a collection of data is hard to harm, I think this framing is unhelpful.
swatcoder 4y ago
It helps to think of it as one of many movements resistant to health and longevity becoming entrenched as a universal moral standard. Some people think that there are more important values in life than those things, and don’t want to have to fight for their right to live by those other values. Here, it’s a right to eat and be active in the way they want, for whatever reasons they want, without having to answer to someone else’s concern over their health or longevity.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  There's a big difference between "I should have the right to do X" and "other people should be supportive of me if I choose to do X".
Tokkemon 4y ago
Thank you for thoroughly othering me. I didn't do anything to you.
boopmaster 4y ago
Correct, there's that line where the body shaming and bullying are more likely to make the fatties go back inside, not get in the pool, and skip participation. That was me in school. I would not have had such issues with weight had it not been repeatedly and antagonistically drawn to attention, and used as an excuse to exclude or diminish my personhood.
- camillomiller 4y ago
  Fair point, but I’m in no way suggesting that it’s ok to bully fat people or not help them overcome their self-acceptance issues. But it self-acceptance is prioritized over fixing an objective health issue (obesity, not being a bit overweight), then it becomes a problem.
  - boopmaster 4y ago
    It’s complicated! Ha. Yeah I mean there’s no value in harassing an individual at all about their fat pride, when they are not responsible for but most likely victims of society… a society that positions cheap and unhealthy food options at every corner. Be mad at McDonald’s. Be mad at Family Dollar. Be mad at bullies. And be made about fat pride too, that we as people have created the conditions that have been so toxic to some people that almost by necessity they inoculate themselves from horrible attitudes that have never helped them in the slightest.
    - camillomiller 4y ago
      Very good points. But frankly, this is Capitalism self-preservation in action. Convincing people of being proud of whoever they are is easier than fixing a systemic issue created by greedy corporations. It’s like prioritizing personal responsibility as a sustainability policy. It’s easier to buy into an ecological lifestyle (put down that plastic straw!) than fixing the systemic underlying issues through which big corporations generate profits.
MrRiddle 4y ago
Exactly how I feel about gender revolution. Mental illness is not something to be proud about and is dangerous to public health.

ipnon 4y ago

It seems public healthcare is not feasible in the United States while the majority of Americans are overweight and a third are obese. It causes too many expensive health problems that are preventable by maintaining a healthy weight. Perhaps the government should simply pay people to keep their BMI under 25.

throwaway5959 4y ago
Oh well thanks for solving the problem there chief. Who knew you only had to pay people to lose weight. Edit: Downvote me all you want, these are just stupid internet points. But what the guy/gal said was offensive to anyone who’s struggled with weight loss. Edit 2: Sounds like I should really lose some weight before I interview.
- brianwawok 4y ago
  Why? I’ve been heavy. I’ve been light. Burn more calories than you consume and you lose weight. I don’t think it’s fair others should need to pay more for my healthcare if I choose to use my American freedom to be heavy?
  - throwaway5959 4y ago
    That’s not what OP said, they said the government should pay people to lose weight. As if getting a $100 check in the mail each month would change people’s behavior. It just lacks any real understanding of why people are overweight to begin with.
    - throwaway98797 4y ago
      they don’t want it enough money is a motivator losing weight sucks because the changes are slow weekly payments could help with motivation this would create a dystopian nightmare but people would be thinner
    - mjthrowaway1 4y ago
      Money is a huge motivator. Aside from the fact that $100 check every month can directly subsidize healthier food choices.

giaour 4y ago

> evaluated the relative contribution of 8 modifiable risk factors—physical inactivity, current smoking, depression, low education, diabetes, midlife obesity, midlife hypertension, and hearing loss—to ADRD risk How are depression and hearing loss modifiable? Is the implication that untreated depression or not using hearing aids is a dementia risk?

ChrstnBonanno 4y ago
Since someone may not have access to hearing or may not be able to get treatment for depression, they are modifiable risks.
sva_ 4y ago
You can clearly do something about depression, and hearing loss is also closely tied to lifestyle choices[0]. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3208793/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3208793/
- giaour 4y ago
  I guess I was drawing a false distinction between things modifiable via medical intervention and things modifiable via lifestyle modification. The relevant thing must be that you have a condition, not what could be done about it, and there's clearly some overlap between the two categories (e.g., obesity).
josephcsible 4y ago
Both depression and hearing loss have treatments. Also, hearing loss can be prevented by, e.g., wearing earplugs when around very loud noises.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

newaccount2021 4y ago

A (record?) 92% of Americans now have some form of health insurance (Biden tweeted this last week) Yet our life expectancy continues to decline Its obesity No amount of healthcare access can save those determined to stay obese

shrubble 4y ago

It's not the corn, it's the soy and other high PUFA oils that are added to everything. But soy is a rotation crop for corn and instead of feeding it to animals it gets used in the human diet.

wyre 4y ago
No. 77% of soy is fed to livestock. https://ourworldindata.org/soy https://ourworldindata.org/soy Japan has one of the highest rates of soy consumption in the world and they also have some of the least obesity and the longest lifespans so I fail to see how soy is problematic in increasing obesity.
- shrubble 4y ago
  Japanese ferment their soybeans when eaten as food - this fermentation chemically changes it. However, I was referring to the soybean oil. Soybean oil is not used in cooking inside the Japanese home, but used for fast food/restaurant cooking. https://www.world-grain.com/articles/16740-soybean-oil-demand-spikes-in-japan-following-covid-19 https://www.world-grain.com/articles/16740-soybean-oil-deman... Next time you get virtually any salad dressing or even a non-sriracha hot sauce such as that served in little packets from e.g. Wendy's or McDonald's, you will find soybean oil as one of the ingredients. Soybean oil is nearly impossible to avoid if you are eating out; and it is found in a lot of other foods such as salad dressing, etc. I would encourage you on your next trip to supermarket to make note of how many processed foods contain soybean oil. Only good quality olive oil is free from PUFAs among the various vegetable oils. (edited for clarity)
  - wyre 4y ago
    The Japanese eat soy in more forms than nattō and soy sauce. If your point was blaming soybean oil say that instead of a blanket statement that soy causes obesity.

0xcde4c3db 4y ago

Is anyone seriously engaging with the question of what to do about obesity from a public health standpoint instead of riding their dietary/urban planning/economic hobby horse or coming up with yet another vacuous PR campaign to promote "healthy choices"? As far as I've been able to find, there are zero examples of countries with an obesity epidemic that have managed to even halt it, let alone reverse it. Every major explanation of the epidemic I've seen fails to actually fit the data, often blatantly so (e.g. blaming things that spiked well before the epidemic in a given population, or trends that flattened or reversed decades ago while obesity continues to rise). It feels like we're either not even trying, or are ruinously confused about what we're up against.

intothemild 4y ago
I remember reading a Twitter thread (i know) where someone who's done a book or something on this subject realized that all the studies bacically say the same thing. Nobody knows the reason, but the data all shows when it started. https://twitter.com/mold_time/status/1412827749828513800?t=eK_XL4E6GoAhLTmuZWrs4Q&s=19 https://twitter.com/mold_time/status/1412827749828513800?t=e...
- tomjen3 4y ago
  There is only one reason possible: we eat more than we need. A lot more. Why we do this is maybe up for debate (personally my guess is because we can and food is tasty), but the basics of thermodynamics is not up for debate.
  - boatsie 4y ago
    This is an annoying take that comes up every time. It’s like saying people die because a critical organ stops functioning. It adds nothing to the discourse and tends to imply that it’s lack of will power.
    - filoleg 4y ago
      How is this analogy even supposed to work? When you eat too much, you can choose to eat less. When your critical organ is about to stop functioning, what can you even do? Use that organ less? Either I am missing something major in that analogy, or it is just bad.

armchairhacker 4y ago

Why are so many people obese? Do that many people just not know better? I know some people really have no idea how calories work but I see obese smart people who should know better. Do people just not care? I understand some people not caring, like computer scientists or “manly” men. But even they should understand that obesity is really bad for health and QOL. They don’t have to become normal weight either: being overweight doesn’t have the negative physical and mental health effects, but they are obese to the point where it does affect those things. Are they hungry? I get this part. I’ve experienced real hunger and it’s not the “just wait until dinner” kind. I could never maintain a normal weight if I had to endure constant hunger and the effects associated with it (low energy, brain fog, mood dysregulation - these are very real things people experience when not eating enough, and which fat people experience even when eating enough when they have hormonal issues). Except, obese people also eat junk food which makes you more hungry. If it was hunger I would expect to see more people eating large plates of protein and vegetables, but it seems like even with CICO most people just don’t get fat on protein and vegetables. Do whole foods just not satiate? Or do people not understand which foods make you feel full, which make you satisfied, and which make you satisfied while tasting good (skinless chicken breast and raw salads with no dressing are not good meals). I don’t have anything against obese people. But supposedly over 40% of Americans are obese, and many are obese in other countries. This is very strange and honestly depressing. Maybe it’s because I live in communities where less people are obese (college towns and a suburban community in a very blue state), because indeed while I see obese people it seems like way less than 40%. Particularly depressing is child obesity, which is really strange because kids tend to have higher metabolisms and even skinny kids’ diets are really junky. I think most people would really like to be not obese, and if those people could lose weight with low effort it would be a huge benefit to them and society. So it’s important to understand why so many people are obese. Because like I said, 40% are obese despite most knowing better, and a lot of people seem to be like “yeah”.

josephcsible 4y ago
Isn't it pretty simple? Our brains release dopamine whenever we eat, and a lot of people lack the self-control to not overeat to get more hits.

mbrodersen 4y ago

A bit of science: Prof. Richard Johnson - 'Nature Wants Us To Be Fat': https://youtu.be/gAjC_BWMElk https://youtu.be/gAjC_BWMElk https://youtu.be/gl-Ugeau8mU https://youtu.be/gl-Ugeau8mU https://youtu.be/UTDWAN1G-nk https://youtu.be/UTDWAN1G-nk