11 ms·

We Need to Talk

53 points by chmaynard 4y ago

jseliger 4y ago
Russian population, in substantial numbers, supports this fascism and this neo-colonialism. I don't think we know this or can know this: gathering anything like accurate information from Russia is impossible. There is likely much preference falsification happening, along the lines described by Timur Kuran: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580.
- randunel 4y ago
  We can't know this per se, but we can estimate it, even from mere anecdotal data gathered all 'round. All of my Russian friends and colleagues claim the same thing about the people they know in the boomer generation and even younger, relatives or not.
- skrebbel 4y ago
  I don't think it's intended as a statistically accurate statement. It's anecdotal, ie the author's friends and family back in Russia tell him that many Russians support it.
nslzk 4y ago
This applies to so many countries that it’s hard for me to care at all. Unless you think that the lives of people from for example the Middle East are worth nothing.
- draw_down 4y ago
- nearmuse 4y ago
  This sounds like some mix of whataboutism and willful ignorance of the scale of the conflict and its atrocities, as well as its economic implications. Energy crisis, immigrant crisis, grain crisis, the need to pour in billions in weapons. The fact that a literal army of almost a million is defending, the scale of use of weapons such as cruise missiles by Russia. The amount of people whose grandparents have lived through Nazi invasion or camps, to see same and worse again. The last but not the least is the fact that among all other countries which Russia is trying to disrupt or annex, it has the most interest in Ukraine.
longrod 4y ago
Wars have always been horrifying. This war is no exception. The only difference now vs then is that the general public has Internet & social media. The terrors are now 100 times magnified. In truth this war is not special in any way. It isn't even the first war of this century (Afghanistan, Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Palestine etc). Perhaps the horrors seem more real now because it's at Europe's doorstep but the rest of the world never really experienced peace. So when I read something like this I am sickened by the one-sided biased view as if the rest of the world hasn't been waging war amongst themselves, as if Russia broke a century long peace. Look at the state of all the war-stricken cities and you'll see the consequences. Why did no one say "We need to talk" then?
- hacym 4y ago
  Uh… they did? And are? The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan became extremely unpopular. People were willing to call it what it is — an overall stain on modern American history. People have always been anti-war. War is rarely a universally accepted option, even if it seems like it is. If you’re saying there isn’t anything different about the Ukrainian war, I’d assert you’re wrong. Russia, and more specifically Putin, has proven they are willing to be an existential threat to humanity via their nuclear weapons. The US waged a war in Iraq, and despite anyone’s opinions, right or wrong, they never once even hinted at the use of tactical nuclear warfare. Russia is the only country that does this and actually had the capabilities. Because of this, the threat is far different than wars fought this past century. Russia is one of a handful of counties that possess this power. I don’t think it’s “one-sided bias” to accept this truth and understand the meaning of it in a larger context.
  - longrod 4y ago
    I would like to remind you that US is the ONLY country that actually has decimated 2 (not 1) cities using nuclear warheads. So saying that Russia has that capability while America doesn't is simply false. Did not America threaten to use nuclear warheads in Afghanistan? It literally went into Iraq after the made-up threat of nuclear weapons in Iraq. I don't think the West ever spoke out against America when it waged all those wars. Oh it does now but now it has become political. The wars have been waged, cities have been destroyed, civilians are dead, and so these wars become unpopular. No one stood up to stop those wars and I bet no one will stand up again. So no, Russia-Ukraine war is not different because Russian has nuclear warheads. It's wrong. It's bad. It's consequences will be horrifying. All true. But in this instance, nothing puts it apart from all the other wars. There's a difference between being anti-war and being silent. Silence is acceptance. And the world remained silent when people were dying in all those war-stricken countries. Just to put things into perspective: America went into Afghanistan and stayed there for 20 years. 20 years long invasion. How long in Iraq? How long in Vietnam? Now Russia opens a front against Ukraine and suddenly everyone thinks it's different. It's not. It's the same thing in a different country. Big oppressing small. Sending a message etc etc.
nbzso 4y ago
- hacym 4y ago
  This is interesting. When a war in Europe breaks out, who has Europe traditionally turned to? Who are they turning to now? America has footed the bill for much of the security in Europe since WWII. Military bases in other countries support this effort. The alternative is abandoning this view and leaving Europe to fend for themselves. How popular of a choice would that be?
  - nbzso 4y ago
    Very popular, as you will see in the near future. US military complex is like a hydra, in my home country we are paying for the second time for f16 fighter jets, which are not existent at all. We are the poorest EU country, with record high mortality, with corrupt government coming one after another in the last 20 years. We have more than 400 million dollars given to our local media outlets and NGO's, for the period of 2009-2021 by foundation which is named "America for <insert my home country name>". My country joined NATO without any form of referendum. The list is long. And we are not alone. Europe will form a real defence Alliance in which we can have some form of control, instead of being colonial outlets for American interests in the region.
    - robotomir 4y ago
      I will assume you're a fellow Bulgarian. At least find comfort in the fact that we've sold billions of USD worth of weapons to all those conflicts of the last 30 years. The part with the F16s is bullshit, as is most of your post.
      - nbzso 4y ago
        My bullshit is just a public data: On f16: Bulgarian Defence Minister: 34 million dollars in Compensation have been agreed due to the Delay of F-16. https://www.novinite.com/articles/216065/Bulgarian+Defense+Minister%3A+34+million+dollars+in+Compensation+have+been+agreed+due+to+the+Delay+of+F-16 https://www.novinite.com/articles/216065/Bulgarian+Defense+M... America's foundation data reports: https://us4bg.org/about-abf/annual-report/ https://us4bg.org/about-abf/annual-report/ If you find "a comfort" in the fact that your home country has sold weapons to all those conflicts, I rest my case. In the meantime living standards of the regular people are in record low, mortality is in record high, education is broken, agriculture is non-existent, the army is weak, healthcare is rotten and there is not one politician prosecuted for corruption for 30 years.
planarhobbit 4y ago
> Russia has now become a fascist state, bent on neo-colonial conquest of everything post-Soviet and post-Russian Empire. Russian population, in substantial numbers, supports this fascism and this neo-colonialism. I thought 1) Most Russians were against the war (“special operation”), and 2) that Russia is losing this war badly and with the new rocket equipment supplied to Ukraine that they’ll be pushed back, etc. So which is it?
- dimitar 4y ago
  Neither is true; While sociological data in a dictatorship is to be taken with a grain of salt, the data shows that most Russians support the "special military operation": https://www.levada.ru/en/ https://www.levada.ru/en/ Worse, there are a lot of people on Russian social media that are aware of war-crimes and support them, I hope their numbers are small, but unfortunately rulers known for cruelty like Ivan the Terrible, Peter I or Stalin are quite revered, and Putin has drawn parallels between himself and them (most recently Peter the First). Russia lost the war in the sense that the original intent was to occupy all or most of the country. But Ukraine still has lost 20% of the area and much of the population is under occupation, refugees or mobilized. This is far from victory for Ukraine and the country needs to be helped to win. Ukrainian victory is in everyone's interest because otherwise wars of conquest will become the norm again.
  - User23 4y ago
    Most ethnic Russians in Ukraine support the action too. The crisis in the Donbas has really soured them. The inevitable outcome is that like with Crimea, Russia will successfully annex the parts of Ukraine that are overwhelmingly populated by Russians who prefer Russian rule. Please don’t mistake a prediction for an endorsement.
    - demetrius 4y ago
      > Most ethnic Russians > in Ukraine support > the action too I think the cause and effect are reversed here: people choose the identity to reflect their political views. So, those who still choose the Russian identity often do so because they support Russia; but it's not a static group, their numbers are dwindling. I believe that a lot of people who used to consider themselves Russians have now embraced Ukrainian identity to distance themselves from Russia. The 'ethnic Russians' and 'ethnic Ukrainians' in Ukraine has much more to do with self-identification than with anything else. (I have an example of my grandfather. Having born near Khabarovsk, he moved to Lviv when he was twenty-some. He considered himself ethnic Ukrainian, while all his family that stayed in Russia consider themselves ethnic Russians. They have the same family history: some of their grandparents emigrated from Ukraine, so it wasn't a made-up identity. But it was a choice: my grandpa, living in Ukraine, considered himself ethnic Ukrainian, and his sister in Kamchatka considers herself ethnic Russian.) 'Ethnic Russians' and 'ethnic Ukrainians' are not some stable groups where members of one cannot become members of another. Basically any Ukrainian can claim to be ethnic Russian, and almost any Russian from Ukraine (except perhaps late immigrants — but even those can usually find some Ukrainian roots) can claim to be ethnic Ukrainian. > The inevitable outcome is that > like with Crimea, Russia will > successfully annex the parts > of Ukraine that are > overwhelmingly populated > by Russians who prefer > Russian rule. I don't think such parts exist. After 2014, Ukrainians have had a good chance to see what happens in places conquered by Russia, so Russia is fooling no one: no one would look at Donetsk and say 'nice, I want my city to be like this!'.
truffdog 4y ago
> “Your grand-granddad was a torturer for the KGB” should be public knowledge, and it should be to the youths to decide what to do with that knowledge. It is not anybody’s to hedge. Why though? If the great grandkid isn't torturing anyone, why should they be held responsible for that? They literally were not present and could do nothing to prevent it.
- demetrius 4y ago
  > If the great grandkid isn't torturing anyone, why should they be held responsible for that? They shouldn't. But at the same time, they should take the words of their grandparents about how great Soviet Union was with a grain of salt. This is not about shaming the grandchildren, this is about having a more realistic picture of the past. This is especially important because the past is used as a justification for doing things in the present: Putin doesn't think he is conquering a real country, he's just restoring a precious situation. And many Russians would think "well, we did live in Soviet Union together, why not join again" without knowing how much violence was needed to keep Soviet Union together.
- nearmuse 4y ago
  If you are asking why, you are not acquainted well enough with the russian mentality with (dis)respect to the west. Unless somebody rubs the scale of atrocity their ancestors commited into the following generations, they will feel like they got away with it, and perceive the west as soft and weak. Much in the same vein as Russia brazenly buying weapon tech and luxury items and electronics from the west, its rich and powerful spending holidays in and sending their kids to study in EU and US. All the while being a part of the global autocracy club and annexing its neighbors. Oh, and MH17 as a bonus, if you need a reminder.
alexashka 4y ago
> One of the few working medicines is exposing, shaming, denigrating exactly the tyranny that is raising its head now Shaming and denigrating as a medicine? Please tell me more about this great discovery in the field of medicine, or is it sociology? It cracks me up to no end how as soon as a dummy can spot a problem, they assume they know the solution. How convenient. We don't need science and engineering or anything, just ask the dummy - they'll go ahead and tell you what the solution is.
- foogazi 4y ago
  I read this as medicine === cure Could be the authors language coming through From the HN guidelines: > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."
chmaynard 4y ago
I posted this because I think it's useful to be reminded of the brutality and senselessness of war. I have no political agenda.

53 points by chmaynard 4y ago

Russian population, in substantial numbers, supports this fascism and this neo-colonialism. I don't think we know this or can know this: gathering anything like accurate information from Russia is impossible. There is likely much preference falsification happening, along the lines described by Timur Kuran: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580.

randunel 4y ago
We can't know this per se, but we can estimate it, even from mere anecdotal data gathered all 'round. All of my Russian friends and colleagues claim the same thing about the people they know in the boomer generation and even younger, relatives or not.
skrebbel 4y ago
I don't think it's intended as a statistically accurate statement. It's anecdotal, ie the author's friends and family back in Russia tell him that many Russians support it.

nslzk 4y ago

This applies to so many countries that it’s hard for me to care at all. Unless you think that the lives of people from for example the Middle East are worth nothing.

draw_down 4y ago
nearmuse 4y ago
This sounds like some mix of whataboutism and willful ignorance of the scale of the conflict and its atrocities, as well as its economic implications. Energy crisis, immigrant crisis, grain crisis, the need to pour in billions in weapons. The fact that a literal army of almost a million is defending, the scale of use of weapons such as cruise missiles by Russia. The amount of people whose grandparents have lived through Nazi invasion or camps, to see same and worse again. The last but not the least is the fact that among all other countries which Russia is trying to disrupt or annex, it has the most interest in Ukraine.

longrod 4y ago

Wars have always been horrifying. This war is no exception. The only difference now vs then is that the general public has Internet & social media. The terrors are now 100 times magnified. In truth this war is not special in any way. It isn't even the first war of this century (Afghanistan, Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Palestine etc). Perhaps the horrors seem more real now because it's at Europe's doorstep but the rest of the world never really experienced peace. So when I read something like this I am sickened by the one-sided biased view as if the rest of the world hasn't been waging war amongst themselves, as if Russia broke a century long peace. Look at the state of all the war-stricken cities and you'll see the consequences. Why did no one say "We need to talk" then?

hacym 4y ago
Uh… they did? And are? The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan became extremely unpopular. People were willing to call it what it is — an overall stain on modern American history. People have always been anti-war. War is rarely a universally accepted option, even if it seems like it is. If you’re saying there isn’t anything different about the Ukrainian war, I’d assert you’re wrong. Russia, and more specifically Putin, has proven they are willing to be an existential threat to humanity via their nuclear weapons. The US waged a war in Iraq, and despite anyone’s opinions, right or wrong, they never once even hinted at the use of tactical nuclear warfare. Russia is the only country that does this and actually had the capabilities. Because of this, the threat is far different than wars fought this past century. Russia is one of a handful of counties that possess this power. I don’t think it’s “one-sided bias” to accept this truth and understand the meaning of it in a larger context.
- longrod 4y ago
  I would like to remind you that US is the ONLY country that actually has decimated 2 (not 1) cities using nuclear warheads. So saying that Russia has that capability while America doesn't is simply false. Did not America threaten to use nuclear warheads in Afghanistan? It literally went into Iraq after the made-up threat of nuclear weapons in Iraq. I don't think the West ever spoke out against America when it waged all those wars. Oh it does now but now it has become political. The wars have been waged, cities have been destroyed, civilians are dead, and so these wars become unpopular. No one stood up to stop those wars and I bet no one will stand up again. So no, Russia-Ukraine war is not different because Russian has nuclear warheads. It's wrong. It's bad. It's consequences will be horrifying. All true. But in this instance, nothing puts it apart from all the other wars. There's a difference between being anti-war and being silent. Silence is acceptance. And the world remained silent when people were dying in all those war-stricken countries. Just to put things into perspective: America went into Afghanistan and stayed there for 20 years. 20 years long invasion. How long in Iraq? How long in Vietnam? Now Russia opens a front against Ukraine and suddenly everyone thinks it's different. It's not. It's the same thing in a different country. Big oppressing small. Sending a message etc etc.

nbzso 4y ago

hacym 4y ago
This is interesting. When a war in Europe breaks out, who has Europe traditionally turned to? Who are they turning to now? America has footed the bill for much of the security in Europe since WWII. Military bases in other countries support this effort. The alternative is abandoning this view and leaving Europe to fend for themselves. How popular of a choice would that be?
- nbzso 4y ago
  Very popular, as you will see in the near future. US military complex is like a hydra, in my home country we are paying for the second time for f16 fighter jets, which are not existent at all. We are the poorest EU country, with record high mortality, with corrupt government coming one after another in the last 20 years. We have more than 400 million dollars given to our local media outlets and NGO's, for the period of 2009-2021 by foundation which is named "America for <insert my home country name>". My country joined NATO without any form of referendum. The list is long. And we are not alone. Europe will form a real defence Alliance in which we can have some form of control, instead of being colonial outlets for American interests in the region.
  - robotomir 4y ago
    I will assume you're a fellow Bulgarian. At least find comfort in the fact that we've sold billions of USD worth of weapons to all those conflicts of the last 30 years. The part with the F16s is bullshit, as is most of your post.
    - nbzso 4y ago
      My bullshit is just a public data: On f16: Bulgarian Defence Minister: 34 million dollars in Compensation have been agreed due to the Delay of F-16. https://www.novinite.com/articles/216065/Bulgarian+Defense+Minister%3A+34+million+dollars+in+Compensation+have+been+agreed+due+to+the+Delay+of+F-16 https://www.novinite.com/articles/216065/Bulgarian+Defense+M... America's foundation data reports: https://us4bg.org/about-abf/annual-report/ https://us4bg.org/about-abf/annual-report/ If you find "a comfort" in the fact that your home country has sold weapons to all those conflicts, I rest my case. In the meantime living standards of the regular people are in record low, mortality is in record high, education is broken, agriculture is non-existent, the army is weak, healthcare is rotten and there is not one politician prosecuted for corruption for 30 years.

planarhobbit 4y ago

> Russia has now become a fascist state, bent on neo-colonial conquest of everything post-Soviet and post-Russian Empire. Russian population, in substantial numbers, supports this fascism and this neo-colonialism. I thought 1) Most Russians were against the war (“special operation”), and 2) that Russia is losing this war badly and with the new rocket equipment supplied to Ukraine that they’ll be pushed back, etc. So which is it?

dimitar 4y ago
Neither is true; While sociological data in a dictatorship is to be taken with a grain of salt, the data shows that most Russians support the "special military operation": https://www.levada.ru/en/ https://www.levada.ru/en/ Worse, there are a lot of people on Russian social media that are aware of war-crimes and support them, I hope their numbers are small, but unfortunately rulers known for cruelty like Ivan the Terrible, Peter I or Stalin are quite revered, and Putin has drawn parallels between himself and them (most recently Peter the First). Russia lost the war in the sense that the original intent was to occupy all or most of the country. But Ukraine still has lost 20% of the area and much of the population is under occupation, refugees or mobilized. This is far from victory for Ukraine and the country needs to be helped to win. Ukrainian victory is in everyone's interest because otherwise wars of conquest will become the norm again.
- User23 4y ago
  Most ethnic Russians in Ukraine support the action too. The crisis in the Donbas has really soured them. The inevitable outcome is that like with Crimea, Russia will successfully annex the parts of Ukraine that are overwhelmingly populated by Russians who prefer Russian rule. Please don’t mistake a prediction for an endorsement.
  - demetrius 4y ago
    > Most ethnic Russians > in Ukraine support > the action too I think the cause and effect are reversed here: people choose the identity to reflect their political views. So, those who still choose the Russian identity often do so because they support Russia; but it's not a static group, their numbers are dwindling. I believe that a lot of people who used to consider themselves Russians have now embraced Ukrainian identity to distance themselves from Russia. The 'ethnic Russians' and 'ethnic Ukrainians' in Ukraine has much more to do with self-identification than with anything else. (I have an example of my grandfather. Having born near Khabarovsk, he moved to Lviv when he was twenty-some. He considered himself ethnic Ukrainian, while all his family that stayed in Russia consider themselves ethnic Russians. They have the same family history: some of their grandparents emigrated from Ukraine, so it wasn't a made-up identity. But it was a choice: my grandpa, living in Ukraine, considered himself ethnic Ukrainian, and his sister in Kamchatka considers herself ethnic Russian.) 'Ethnic Russians' and 'ethnic Ukrainians' are not some stable groups where members of one cannot become members of another. Basically any Ukrainian can claim to be ethnic Russian, and almost any Russian from Ukraine (except perhaps late immigrants — but even those can usually find some Ukrainian roots) can claim to be ethnic Ukrainian. > The inevitable outcome is that > like with Crimea, Russia will > successfully annex the parts > of Ukraine that are > overwhelmingly populated > by Russians who prefer > Russian rule. I don't think such parts exist. After 2014, Ukrainians have had a good chance to see what happens in places conquered by Russia, so Russia is fooling no one: no one would look at Donetsk and say 'nice, I want my city to be like this!'.

truffdog 4y ago

> “Your grand-granddad was a torturer for the KGB” should be public knowledge, and it should be to the youths to decide what to do with that knowledge. It is not anybody’s to hedge. Why though? If the great grandkid isn't torturing anyone, why should they be held responsible for that? They literally were not present and could do nothing to prevent it.

demetrius 4y ago
> If the great grandkid isn't torturing anyone, why should they be held responsible for that? They shouldn't. But at the same time, they should take the words of their grandparents about how great Soviet Union was with a grain of salt. This is not about shaming the grandchildren, this is about having a more realistic picture of the past. This is especially important because the past is used as a justification for doing things in the present: Putin doesn't think he is conquering a real country, he's just restoring a precious situation. And many Russians would think "well, we did live in Soviet Union together, why not join again" without knowing how much violence was needed to keep Soviet Union together.
nearmuse 4y ago
If you are asking why, you are not acquainted well enough with the russian mentality with (dis)respect to the west. Unless somebody rubs the scale of atrocity their ancestors commited into the following generations, they will feel like they got away with it, and perceive the west as soft and weak. Much in the same vein as Russia brazenly buying weapon tech and luxury items and electronics from the west, its rich and powerful spending holidays in and sending their kids to study in EU and US. All the while being a part of the global autocracy club and annexing its neighbors. Oh, and MH17 as a bonus, if you need a reminder.

alexashka 4y ago

> One of the few working medicines is exposing, shaming, denigrating exactly the tyranny that is raising its head now Shaming and denigrating as a medicine? Please tell me more about this great discovery in the field of medicine, or is it sociology? It cracks me up to no end how as soon as a dummy can spot a problem, they assume they know the solution. How convenient. We don't need science and engineering or anything, just ask the dummy - they'll go ahead and tell you what the solution is.

foogazi 4y ago
I read this as medicine === cure Could be the authors language coming through From the HN guidelines: > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

chmaynard 4y ago

I posted this because I think it's useful to be reminded of the brutality and senselessness of war. I have no political agenda.