7 ms·

FTA:It's not clear why people with high childhood IQs are more likely to use illegal drugs. "We suspect they may be more open to new experiences and are more s

by buff-a 15y ago

FTA:It's not clear why people with high childhood IQs are more likely to use illegal drugs. "We suspect they may be more open to new experiences and are more sensation seeking," says White. The articles shy away from the elephant in the room which is that the UK and US gvts have a massive legal and propaganda effort to prevent drug use. Indeed the idea that only stupid people do drugs is part of this propaganda. So maybe its because a higher IQ allows one to realize that the War on Drugs is fucking irrational bullshit and magical thinking and act accordingly (i.e. to choose for oneself). In a world where broccoli is illegal because its "evil", the headline could have been "High IQ linked to broccoli eating". Here's a question: is a high IQ linked to smoking? How about alcohol? Update: So alcohol is also correlated with iq too.

bambax 15y ago
> How about alcohol? From the article: > The lead researcher says he isn't surprised by the findings. "Previous research found for the most part people with high IQs lead a healthy life, but that they are more likely to drink to excess as adults," says James White a psychologist at Cardiff University in the United Kingdom. What the article doesn't explore is the fact that drugs are expensive; isn't it possible that drug use is correlated with revenue? The study apparently didn't make a difference between addicts and occasional users. IQ is also correlated with revenue (probably because that's what it actually measures: socio-economic class), and so that may be a part of the explanation, at least for "recreational" drugs.
- porfirio 15y ago
  "IQ is also correlated with revenue (probably because that's what it actually measures: socio-economic class)" False. Charles Murray compared brothers of the same household of different intelligence levels, and found significant disparities in income. http://www.eugenics.net/papers/murray.html http://www.eugenics.net/papers/murray.html (article originally appeared in The Telegraph) It's more accurate to say socioeconomic class measures IQ, rather than the other way around. To oversimplify, high IQ people are more productive, IQ at adulthood is heritable to a great extent (~80% of variation in IQ is due to genetic variation), so 1 + 1 = rich families have higher IQ children. Imagine if people were paid based on how tall they are, and replace IQ with height, and it'd be the same -> Tall parents + high heritability for height -> rich families have taller offspring. People don't recognize this with regards to IQ because they ultimately don't believe IQ is highly heritable, which it is. Links: IQ and productivity: http://www.onetest.com.au/awms/Upload/documents/whitepapers/Schmidt%20and%20Hunter%20Summary%20-%20Onetest.pdf http://www.onetest.com.au/awms/Upload/documents/whitepapers/... IQ and heritability: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ (first paragraph)
  - bad_user 15y ago
    they ultimately don't believe IQ is highly heritable, which it is I don't think anybody sane questions that, but what people are saying and that studies so far have confirmed ... 1) small variations in IQ tests don't matter, like for example the difference between 120 and 140 being negligible and depends a lot on external factors, like rest, vitamins in your blood-stream and mood ... give a person several IQ tests over a period of time and he'll score differently every single time 2) you can increase your IQ score with a certain amount of points just by making your brain work harder. Physical exercises work too (professional athletes are above average) Ultimately the most common complaint is that intelligence (while hereditary) is not something you can accurately measure and that IQ tests are inherently not reliable.
    - mgkimsal 15y ago
      "give a person several IQ tests over a period of time and he'll score differently every single time" Not sure what you mean by several. I took 4 (5?) over a 30 year period, and the results were all within a couple percentage points of each other.
      - bad_user 15y ago
        I took the same number of tests (4) over a period of 7 years and the minimum I got was 119, while the maximum was 140. Clearly this has some significance, as over 100 you're definitely at least average, over 130 you're definitely gifted, while below 80 you're definitely challenged. However, my point was that small variations are not significant. Also, the correlation between IQ scores and intelligence in general is highly debatable - and that's what people are arguing about.
        Retric 15y ago
        Not all IQ tests use the same scoring system. Some use S.D. of 16 others S.D 15 etc. http://www.paulcooijmans.com/intelligence/sd15.html http://www.paulcooijmans.com/intelligence/sd15.html
        15y ago
- greyish_water 15y ago
  From the ScienceDaily article:"The findings held true, irrespective of anxiety/depression during adolescence, parental social class, and lifetime household income."
- Alex3917 15y ago
  "What the article doesn't explore is the fact that drugs are expensive" Not really. Doing enough drugs to be counted as a 'drug user' shouldn't cost more than five or ten bucks a year.
  - teamonkey 15y ago
    This is true. From the link: > Then when participants turned 30, they were asked whether they had used drugs such as marijuana, cocaine and heroin in the past year. They only need to use drugs once in the last year to qualify.
    - Alex3917 15y ago
      Exactly. 3.5 grams of weed sells for about $35, and a reasonable recreational dose is about .03 - .05 grams when vaporized, i.e. about 30 to 50 cents per use. You could even use marijuana once per month for less than $5 per year total.
roel_v 15y ago
"Here's a question: is a high IQ linked <...>? How about alcohol?" Not sure what you are getting at with this question, but according to TFA, yes it is. (maybe I'm just dense and your point went over my head)
brador 15y ago
How about High IQ = more stressful employment = more recreational drug use? I'd be interested in an addition of an "average alcohol consumption" variable to this dataset.
- electromagnetic 15y ago
  I think there's potentially lots of reasons why a high IQ would lead to drug/alcohol use. Stress for me is a killer, by Friday night if I've had a hard week I'm either wishing I still had a pot dealer or I'm hitting up the liquor store for some whiskey. Similarly high IQ is linked to depression, again likely for a mix of reasons from social isolation (aka being smarter than everyone) and having a greater ability for introspection into ones life (aka I could have done more with my life, etc.). Depression is often a major factor in alcoholism and drug abuse. The question I wonder is does a high IQ predetermine what drugs a person is going to use. Smart people I've noticed seem to target pot and hallucinogenics. It always seems to be the idiots and suggestibles that end up with the heroin addiction.
  - mannicken 15y ago
    "It always seems to be the idiots and suggestibles that end up with the heroin addiction." Really? You mean like, W.S. Burroughs, Kurt Cobain, Patrick Kroupa, Edgar Allen Poe (although he used opium), Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, John Belushi, Jim Morrison, and a lot of other people who like to keep their addictions hidden least they be stigmatized as junkies? I know it's so tempting to just classify a certain class of people as undesirables based on what drugs they prefer or what their skin color is, but that's not smart.
    - hessenwolf 15y ago
      Couldn't agree more. Having spent some time living near a lot of junkies, it seems the people that got addicted to heroin were the people who tried heroin. You could hardly say they were idiots to try heroin - the pushers are fairly good marketers, get somebody fucked drunk, give them some cocaine and ectasy, and then a hot girl convinces them to try it, and they have a (brief) lifetime customer.
maximusprime 15y ago
"Indeed the idea that only stupid people do drugs is part of this propaganda." That's not propaganda. It's numbers. Doing drugs = high risk. And it's stupid to take high risks with your body, unless you don't mind dying young. I've never understood why many 'tech' people are so pro drugs. Why do you need it?
- mistermann 15y ago
  Doing certain drugs = high risk.
  - swalkergibson 15y ago
    One thing leads to another. Why tempt fate? Addiction is a complex disease which no one has really figured out, why even put yourself in a position to ruin your life?
    - thoerin 15y ago
      Because drug use is a unique experience and you only live once. Why do anything dangerous? Because sometimes the experience is worth the risk.
      - maximusprime 15y ago
        Being in a car crash is a unique experience. There's some things you don't need to try.
- sp4rki 15y ago
  High risk? I'd argue driving on heavy traffic a payday is a whole lot more dangerous than smoking a joint while you wait for rush hour to pass. Doing drugs can be as dangerous as skydiving without a parachute or as safe as staying home a friday night... It's not the drugs that are dangerous, it's the users; the same way it's not that a toy is dangerous, but that you're giving the toy to a two year old when it meant for six year olds and up.
rick888 15y ago
"So maybe its because a higher IQ allows one to realize that the War on Drugs is fucking irrational bullshit and magical thinking and act accordingly (i.e. to choose for oneself)." I think it has more to do with the fact that people with higher IQs don't feel like they are a part of regular society and it's a way to cope with it. Many people that are depressed use illegal and legal drugs to make themselves feel better. I have a feeling there is also a higher level of depression in people with high IQs as well. I would be interested to see if the same holds true with people that have lower than average IQs. "The articles shy away from the elephant in the room which is that the UK and US gvts have a massive legal and propaganda effort to prevent drug use" Illegal drugs aren't good or healthy for you. I feel like you will most likely spread propaganda in the opposite direction and it's just as bad.

by buff-a 15y ago

bambax 15y ago

> How about alcohol? From the article: > The lead researcher says he isn't surprised by the findings. "Previous research found for the most part people with high IQs lead a healthy life, but that they are more likely to drink to excess as adults," says James White a psychologist at Cardiff University in the United Kingdom. What the article doesn't explore is the fact that drugs are expensive; isn't it possible that drug use is correlated with revenue? The study apparently didn't make a difference between addicts and occasional users. IQ is also correlated with revenue (probably because that's what it actually measures: socio-economic class), and so that may be a part of the explanation, at least for "recreational" drugs.

porfirio 15y ago
"IQ is also correlated with revenue (probably because that's what it actually measures: socio-economic class)" False. Charles Murray compared brothers of the same household of different intelligence levels, and found significant disparities in income. http://www.eugenics.net/papers/murray.html http://www.eugenics.net/papers/murray.html (article originally appeared in The Telegraph) It's more accurate to say socioeconomic class measures IQ, rather than the other way around. To oversimplify, high IQ people are more productive, IQ at adulthood is heritable to a great extent (~80% of variation in IQ is due to genetic variation), so 1 + 1 = rich families have higher IQ children. Imagine if people were paid based on how tall they are, and replace IQ with height, and it'd be the same -> Tall parents + high heritability for height -> rich families have taller offspring. People don't recognize this with regards to IQ because they ultimately don't believe IQ is highly heritable, which it is. Links: IQ and productivity: http://www.onetest.com.au/awms/Upload/documents/whitepapers/Schmidt%20and%20Hunter%20Summary%20-%20Onetest.pdf http://www.onetest.com.au/awms/Upload/documents/whitepapers/... IQ and heritability: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ (first paragraph)
- bad_user 15y ago
  they ultimately don't believe IQ is highly heritable, which it is I don't think anybody sane questions that, but what people are saying and that studies so far have confirmed ... 1) small variations in IQ tests don't matter, like for example the difference between 120 and 140 being negligible and depends a lot on external factors, like rest, vitamins in your blood-stream and mood ... give a person several IQ tests over a period of time and he'll score differently every single time 2) you can increase your IQ score with a certain amount of points just by making your brain work harder. Physical exercises work too (professional athletes are above average) Ultimately the most common complaint is that intelligence (while hereditary) is not something you can accurately measure and that IQ tests are inherently not reliable.
  - mgkimsal 15y ago
    "give a person several IQ tests over a period of time and he'll score differently every single time" Not sure what you mean by several. I took 4 (5?) over a 30 year period, and the results were all within a couple percentage points of each other.
    - bad_user 15y ago
      I took the same number of tests (4) over a period of 7 years and the minimum I got was 119, while the maximum was 140. Clearly this has some significance, as over 100 you're definitely at least average, over 130 you're definitely gifted, while below 80 you're definitely challenged. However, my point was that small variations are not significant. Also, the correlation between IQ scores and intelligence in general is highly debatable - and that's what people are arguing about.
      - Retric 15y ago
        Not all IQ tests use the same scoring system. Some use S.D. of 16 others S.D 15 etc. http://www.paulcooijmans.com/intelligence/sd15.html http://www.paulcooijmans.com/intelligence/sd15.html
      - 15y ago
greyish_water 15y ago
From the ScienceDaily article:"The findings held true, irrespective of anxiety/depression during adolescence, parental social class, and lifetime household income."
Alex3917 15y ago
"What the article doesn't explore is the fact that drugs are expensive" Not really. Doing enough drugs to be counted as a 'drug user' shouldn't cost more than five or ten bucks a year.
- teamonkey 15y ago
  This is true. From the link: > Then when participants turned 30, they were asked whether they had used drugs such as marijuana, cocaine and heroin in the past year. They only need to use drugs once in the last year to qualify.
  - Alex3917 15y ago
    Exactly. 3.5 grams of weed sells for about $35, and a reasonable recreational dose is about .03 - .05 grams when vaporized, i.e. about 30 to 50 cents per use. You could even use marijuana once per month for less than $5 per year total.

roel_v 15y ago

"Here's a question: is a high IQ linked <...>? How about alcohol?" Not sure what you are getting at with this question, but according to TFA, yes it is. (maybe I'm just dense and your point went over my head)

brador 15y ago

How about High IQ = more stressful employment = more recreational drug use? I'd be interested in an addition of an "average alcohol consumption" variable to this dataset.

electromagnetic 15y ago
I think there's potentially lots of reasons why a high IQ would lead to drug/alcohol use. Stress for me is a killer, by Friday night if I've had a hard week I'm either wishing I still had a pot dealer or I'm hitting up the liquor store for some whiskey. Similarly high IQ is linked to depression, again likely for a mix of reasons from social isolation (aka being smarter than everyone) and having a greater ability for introspection into ones life (aka I could have done more with my life, etc.). Depression is often a major factor in alcoholism and drug abuse. The question I wonder is does a high IQ predetermine what drugs a person is going to use. Smart people I've noticed seem to target pot and hallucinogenics. It always seems to be the idiots and suggestibles that end up with the heroin addiction.
- mannicken 15y ago
  "It always seems to be the idiots and suggestibles that end up with the heroin addiction." Really? You mean like, W.S. Burroughs, Kurt Cobain, Patrick Kroupa, Edgar Allen Poe (although he used opium), Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, John Belushi, Jim Morrison, and a lot of other people who like to keep their addictions hidden least they be stigmatized as junkies? I know it's so tempting to just classify a certain class of people as undesirables based on what drugs they prefer or what their skin color is, but that's not smart.
  - hessenwolf 15y ago
    Couldn't agree more. Having spent some time living near a lot of junkies, it seems the people that got addicted to heroin were the people who tried heroin. You could hardly say they were idiots to try heroin - the pushers are fairly good marketers, get somebody fucked drunk, give them some cocaine and ectasy, and then a hot girl convinces them to try it, and they have a (brief) lifetime customer.

maximusprime 15y ago

"Indeed the idea that only stupid people do drugs is part of this propaganda." That's not propaganda. It's numbers. Doing drugs = high risk. And it's stupid to take high risks with your body, unless you don't mind dying young. I've never understood why many 'tech' people are so pro drugs. Why do you need it?

mistermann 15y ago
Doing certain drugs = high risk.
- swalkergibson 15y ago
  One thing leads to another. Why tempt fate? Addiction is a complex disease which no one has really figured out, why even put yourself in a position to ruin your life?
  - thoerin 15y ago
    Because drug use is a unique experience and you only live once. Why do anything dangerous? Because sometimes the experience is worth the risk.
    - maximusprime 15y ago
      Being in a car crash is a unique experience. There's some things you don't need to try.
sp4rki 15y ago
High risk? I'd argue driving on heavy traffic a payday is a whole lot more dangerous than smoking a joint while you wait for rush hour to pass. Doing drugs can be as dangerous as skydiving without a parachute or as safe as staying home a friday night... It's not the drugs that are dangerous, it's the users; the same way it's not that a toy is dangerous, but that you're giving the toy to a two year old when it meant for six year olds and up.

rick888 15y ago

"So maybe its because a higher IQ allows one to realize that the War on Drugs is fucking irrational bullshit and magical thinking and act accordingly (i.e. to choose for oneself)." I think it has more to do with the fact that people with higher IQs don't feel like they are a part of regular society and it's a way to cope with it. Many people that are depressed use illegal and legal drugs to make themselves feel better. I have a feeling there is also a higher level of depression in people with high IQs as well. I would be interested to see if the same holds true with people that have lower than average IQs. "The articles shy away from the elephant in the room which is that the UK and US gvts have a massive legal and propaganda effort to prevent drug use" Illegal drugs aren't good or healthy for you. I feel like you will most likely spread propaganda in the opposite direction and it's just as bad.