3 ms·

You are assuming that that's even possible, it says a lot about some bikers' mentality (I'm assuming you are one by the way you got all offended, for nothing)

You are assuming that that's even possible, it says a lot about some bikers' mentality (I'm assuming you are one by the way you got all offended, for nothing) But the city where I live, Milan, built standard bike lanes as they are built all over Europe. So please, before assuming, ask. I would also remind you that walking is more sustainable than electric bikes and pedestrians surely don't want to die because of e-bikes mania.

cogman10 4y ago
> I would also remind you that walking is more sustainable than electric bikes and pedestrians surely don't eant to die because of e-bikes mania. So, I'm going to get super pedantic here... But, nope. Walking burns more calories than riding an ebike and those calories come from somewhere. Walking isn't an efficient conversion of calories into energy. Biking ends up being more sustainable because it coverts more calories into motion. E-bikes even more sustainable because it uses less calories and instead relies on a battery (charged from on ever greening grid). You could debate about whether or not biking is more sustainable than ebiking due to battery production impact. However, both are going to have a clear win over walking. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/ghg-kcal-poore https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/ghg-kcal-poore https://www.bikeradar.com/features/long-reads/cycling-environmental-impact/#:~:text=What%20are%20the%20total%20emissions,emissions%20come%20from%20food%20production https://www.bikeradar.com/features/long-reads/cycling-enviro....
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > Walking burns more calories than riding an ebike and those calories come from somewhere You can't be serious... Walking also reduce your risk of going to the hospital, how much energy is saved? Do ambulances run on magic dust? > However, both are going to have a clear win over walking. I seriously hoped you were jocking. Until we won't be born with wheels, walking will win. I sincerely hope that you'll at least get this, one day...
  - cogman10 4y ago
    I am serious and provided links to back my claims. Can you do the same?
- wizofaus 4y ago
  That's assuming it makes the least bit sense to compare the distances people typically walk when that's the available mode of travel compared to how far they ride when they have e-bikes. And "sustainable" isn't even primarily about energy efficiency - it's about ensuring we don't exceed the capacity of the planet to repair what damage we do it. A human population that relies primarily on walking (or push-biking) to get around is almost certainly going to be far more sustainable than one primarily using e-bikes.
cogman10 4y ago
> But the city where I live, Milan, built standard bike lanes as they are built all over Europe. No clue how Milan is. But for me, the most common reason I leave a bike lane is because someone has parked their car in it. A large percentage of motorists treat bike lanes as parking lanes and often cities aren't ticketing them.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  it is still not the pedestrians' fault! call the police and make them notice it. if bike lanes are not available, they have to, by the law, use the road, not 'what the biker thinks it's best' Imagine if car drivers did the same "oh, there's a truck stuck in to middle of the road, let me cut through this park where kids are playing, at 80mph"
  - cogman10 4y ago
    > call the police and make them notice it. They are often the ones blocking the road. > if bike lanes are not available, they have to, by the law, use the road, not 'what the biker thinks it's best' As I'm sure you are aware, laws are not universal. In Idaho where I live, cyclists are allowed on the sidewalk so long as they yield to pedestrians. [1] > Imagine if car drivers did the same "oh, there's a truck stuck in to middle of the road, let me cut through this park where kids are playing, at 80mph" Bikes and cars are different. It's perfectly reasonable to bike at 10mph on a sidewalk and where I live it happens all the time without incident. You aren't operating a 2 ton metal box with low visibility. [1] https://www.bikelaw.com/laws/idaho/ https://www.bikelaw.com/laws/idaho/
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      > They are often the ones blocking the road. Hah - trust me, that's not just Italy either. Though it's more likely to be construction workers who hopefully do actually have some sort of permit to be using the bike lane, but it's still an issue for cyclists. And yeah, the moment someone starts comparing what you can safely do on a bike (where your total weight is very likely under 100kg, most of which - your body - is squishy, and is rarely moving at over 30 km/h) vs a car (literally a hard metal box weighing up to 10 times as much, and capable of speeds well over 100km/h just with the lightest touch of the driver's foot) I just tune out - the physics involved are fundamentally different.
morsch 4y ago
Seems like they only just started and are not close to being done. I wouldn't expect any cultural change, such as drivers respecting and riders trusting new infrastructure, within a year. It wasn't Milan, but I know I refrained from renting a bike in Italy because the road traffic seemed to dangerous. Maybe the standard European bike lanes you're referring to (which don't exist, btw, there are various styles in various countries, some good, some terrible) don't work for Italian road users. https://road.cc/content/news/milan-confirms-new-bike-network-289375 https://road.cc/content/news/milan-confirms-new-bike-network...
- wizofaus 4y ago
  Road traffic in Italy is definitely somewhat chaotic - I got knocked off a bike in Naples mainly because I was too trusting that cars would stay in their lane and not randomly move over with no indication. But when drivers do know you're there they're generally respectful.
amrocha 4y ago
I'm not assuming safe bicycle lanes are possible, I know they are. I've been to Amsterdam. Vancouver built fully separated bike lanes and they're immensely popular. Second, standard European bike lanes aren't a thing. I would ride a bike anywhere in Amsterdam or Rotterdam. I would think twice before doing it anywhere in Italy. And idk what you're talking about with walking being more sustainable, obviously you can go farther on a bike than by walking.

cogman10 4y ago

> I would also remind you that walking is more sustainable than electric bikes and pedestrians surely don't eant to die because of e-bikes mania. So, I'm going to get super pedantic here... But, nope. Walking burns more calories than riding an ebike and those calories come from somewhere. Walking isn't an efficient conversion of calories into energy. Biking ends up being more sustainable because it coverts more calories into motion. E-bikes even more sustainable because it uses less calories and instead relies on a battery (charged from on ever greening grid). You could debate about whether or not biking is more sustainable than ebiking due to battery production impact. However, both are going to have a clear win over walking. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/ghg-kcal-poore https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/ghg-kcal-poore https://www.bikeradar.com/features/long-reads/cycling-environmental-impact/#:~:text=What%20are%20the%20total%20emissions,emissions%20come%20from%20food%20production https://www.bikeradar.com/features/long-reads/cycling-enviro....

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> Walking burns more calories than riding an ebike and those calories come from somewhere You can't be serious... Walking also reduce your risk of going to the hospital, how much energy is saved? Do ambulances run on magic dust? > However, both are going to have a clear win over walking. I seriously hoped you were jocking. Until we won't be born with wheels, walking will win. I sincerely hope that you'll at least get this, one day...
- cogman10 4y ago
  I am serious and provided links to back my claims. Can you do the same?
wizofaus 4y ago
That's assuming it makes the least bit sense to compare the distances people typically walk when that's the available mode of travel compared to how far they ride when they have e-bikes. And "sustainable" isn't even primarily about energy efficiency - it's about ensuring we don't exceed the capacity of the planet to repair what damage we do it. A human population that relies primarily on walking (or push-biking) to get around is almost certainly going to be far more sustainable than one primarily using e-bikes.

cogman10 4y ago

> But the city where I live, Milan, built standard bike lanes as they are built all over Europe. No clue how Milan is. But for me, the most common reason I leave a bike lane is because someone has parked their car in it. A large percentage of motorists treat bike lanes as parking lanes and often cities aren't ticketing them.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago
it is still not the pedestrians' fault! call the police and make them notice it. if bike lanes are not available, they have to, by the law, use the road, not 'what the biker thinks it's best' Imagine if car drivers did the same "oh, there's a truck stuck in to middle of the road, let me cut through this park where kids are playing, at 80mph"
- cogman10 4y ago
  > call the police and make them notice it. They are often the ones blocking the road. > if bike lanes are not available, they have to, by the law, use the road, not 'what the biker thinks it's best' As I'm sure you are aware, laws are not universal. In Idaho where I live, cyclists are allowed on the sidewalk so long as they yield to pedestrians. [1] > Imagine if car drivers did the same "oh, there's a truck stuck in to middle of the road, let me cut through this park where kids are playing, at 80mph" Bikes and cars are different. It's perfectly reasonable to bike at 10mph on a sidewalk and where I live it happens all the time without incident. You aren't operating a 2 ton metal box with low visibility. [1] https://www.bikelaw.com/laws/idaho/ https://www.bikelaw.com/laws/idaho/
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    > They are often the ones blocking the road. Hah - trust me, that's not just Italy either. Though it's more likely to be construction workers who hopefully do actually have some sort of permit to be using the bike lane, but it's still an issue for cyclists. And yeah, the moment someone starts comparing what you can safely do on a bike (where your total weight is very likely under 100kg, most of which - your body - is squishy, and is rarely moving at over 30 km/h) vs a car (literally a hard metal box weighing up to 10 times as much, and capable of speeds well over 100km/h just with the lightest touch of the driver's foot) I just tune out - the physics involved are fundamentally different.

morsch 4y ago

Seems like they only just started and are not close to being done. I wouldn't expect any cultural change, such as drivers respecting and riders trusting new infrastructure, within a year. It wasn't Milan, but I know I refrained from renting a bike in Italy because the road traffic seemed to dangerous. Maybe the standard European bike lanes you're referring to (which don't exist, btw, there are various styles in various countries, some good, some terrible) don't work for Italian road users. https://road.cc/content/news/milan-confirms-new-bike-network-289375 https://road.cc/content/news/milan-confirms-new-bike-network...

wizofaus 4y ago
Road traffic in Italy is definitely somewhat chaotic - I got knocked off a bike in Naples mainly because I was too trusting that cars would stay in their lane and not randomly move over with no indication. But when drivers do know you're there they're generally respectful.

amrocha 4y ago

I'm not assuming safe bicycle lanes are possible, I know they are. I've been to Amsterdam. Vancouver built fully separated bike lanes and they're immensely popular. Second, standard European bike lanes aren't a thing. I would ride a bike anywhere in Amsterdam or Rotterdam. I would think twice before doing it anywhere in Italy. And idk what you're talking about with walking being more sustainable, obviously you can go farther on a bike than by walking.