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> That said, prison labor is quite common across the globe and considered rehabilitating. I cannot speak for Finland specifically, but in many places prisoners

> That said, prison labor is quite common across the globe and considered rehabilitating. I cannot speak for Finland specifically, but in many places prisoners are taught and can earn qualifications while in prison. If they can leave prison with qualifications as a cook, car mechanic, car painter, carpenter, electrician, or even locksmith (yes, I've seen that, as ridiculous as it sounds), that might actually help them. However in the US prisoners are often exploited to perform utterly menial tasks. Forget any formal training or earning qualifications. Even if they would perform the same task outside prison, they probably couldn't compete with $0.10/h prison labor. If that cheap human labor didn't exist, those tasks would likely just be automated. So there's a bit of nuance there and I wouldn't consider all kinds of prison labor rehabilitating. The philosophy in the US seems to be that you just have to change people: Instead of giving people opportunities to lead a normal life after prison, options are actually taken away from felons. Most other western countries recognize that many crimes are also a result of circumstances and lack of opportunities. The easiest way to get people to follow your rules is not punishment, it's making them want to do it because conformity is the path of least resistance.

nemo44x 4y ago
> Most other western countries recognize that many crimes are also a result of circumstances and lack of opportunities. In the USA that’s simply not true. There are boundless opportunities for every individual to take advantage of. There is a labor shortage at the moment. There are severe shortages of people that are craftsmen as well and tons of free training online. No one is desperate due to the circumstances created by the USA. They make the conscious choice to become a criminal. Criminals are not victims and the coddling, condescending attitudes to criminals is degrading to them if anything. They made the choice and should own it like you’d expect from any adult.
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- virgildotcodes 4y ago
  > No one is desperate due to the circumstances created by the USA. They make the conscious choice to become a criminal. Man, if any quote could be used to show how HN should not be taken seriously on any topic that strays outside of the strict definition of STEM-related, this could be a contender. I don't even know where to begin, but consider the fact that people are born into situations far more horrible than you may ever truly comprehend, where criminal acts and lifestyles are as normal to them as anything you would find normal to yourself growing up.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    > I don't even know where to begin Possibly because you don’t have a good point to make. Most people that grow up in bad places or situations don’t become criminals. Criminal acts may occur more frequently in certain places but the vast majority of people from those places do not become criminals. And what do you know about me growing up? I grew up around a lot of these types of “horrible situations” and most the kids turned out. Sone choose to commit crimes and sone died or were incarcerated because of those choices.
    - virgildotcodes 4y ago
      > Possibly because you don’t have a good point to make. Consider the other possibilities. If someone confidently told you that our flat Earth is 6,000 years old, where would you begin? There's a lot to unpack, and you're not even certain if all the work will be worth doing or just a waste of time. > Most people that grow up in bad places or situations don’t become criminals. Most people who smoke don't get lung cancer. So by your logic have we proven that smoking doesn't cause lung cancer? Poverty, in the US and globally, is correlated with higher crime rates. Isn't it such a strange coincidence that people who happen to be born into poverty also consistently happen to "choose" to commit more crimes, given that their environment has nothing to do with their choices? Shouldn't crime rates be equal across all socioeconomic classes? > I grew up around a lot of these types of “horrible situations” and most the kids turned out. Again, most people who do X don't end up Y is in no way a valid argument that X doesn't cause Y.
- mehphp 4y ago
  If that were true, wouldn’t crime rates be evenly distributed among income/circumstances? You don’t find it convincing that poorer/less-educated places tend to have higher crime rates? I’m not saying people aren’t culpable for their crimes, but surely it’s not as simple as people “consciously choosing” to become criminals.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    > If that were true, wouldn’t crime rates be evenly distributed among income/circumstances? Just because some people from lower income brackets choose to risk their livelihoods by doing crimes doesn’t mean there isn’t boundless opportunities. If a person would rather gangbang or sling meth instead of doing something productive then that’s their choice. There aren’t exactly a bunch of dudes desperate for cancer treatments they can’t afford so they turn to criminal enterprise to fund it. They choose the lifestyle.
    - mehphp 4y ago
      Again though, if that were the case (that it's simply a choice and opportunity has nothing to do with it), we should see the same rate of people choosing crime among affluent people. It's simply not true that people in lower income have the same opportunities. They don't have access to the same quality of education, people who care about their career prospects or the ability to afford higher education.
      - nemo44x 4y ago
        You’re changing the argument again. I never said the “same opportunities”. I simply said there are opportunities available in sufficient numbers that crime is no excuse. Poor people aren’t as stupid as you think. Most don’t turn to crime. To reverse your logic, affluent people should never commit crimes but yet sone do too. People make choices. I think this was once called the soft bigotry of low expectations. You are a bigot by your logic. Looking down on poor people is offensive.
        4y ago
MomoXenosaga 4y ago
One thing that always surprised me is that felons can't vote in America. In the Netherlands only in a few political cases after WW2 did people lose their right to vote or enter parliament.
- notlukesky 4y ago
  The ethnic makeup is allegedly the reason behind that.
dcminter 4y ago
> or even locksmith (yes, I've seen that, as ridiculous as it sounds), that might actually help them As it happens, in the UK there's a chain of locksmiths (they do a few other things, but key cutting is their stock in trade) called Timpson that employs many ex-offenders: https://www.timpson-group.co.uk/timpson-foundation/ex-offenders/ https://www.timpson-group.co.uk/timpson-foundation/ex-offend...
phanimahesh 4y ago
> The philosophy in the US seems to be that you just have to change people I'm not sure what you mean by this. To me it looks like prisons in US are a good business and good for business due to cheap slave labor. Many places have for profit prisons, high repeat offense rates and ridiculous incarceration rates. This is all from an external point of view, I'm not from the US.

nemo44x 4y ago

> Most other western countries recognize that many crimes are also a result of circumstances and lack of opportunities. In the USA that’s simply not true. There are boundless opportunities for every individual to take advantage of. There is a labor shortage at the moment. There are severe shortages of people that are craftsmen as well and tons of free training online. No one is desperate due to the circumstances created by the USA. They make the conscious choice to become a criminal. Criminals are not victims and the coddling, condescending attitudes to criminals is degrading to them if anything. They made the choice and should own it like you’d expect from any adult.

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virgildotcodes 4y ago
> No one is desperate due to the circumstances created by the USA. They make the conscious choice to become a criminal. Man, if any quote could be used to show how HN should not be taken seriously on any topic that strays outside of the strict definition of STEM-related, this could be a contender. I don't even know where to begin, but consider the fact that people are born into situations far more horrible than you may ever truly comprehend, where criminal acts and lifestyles are as normal to them as anything you would find normal to yourself growing up.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  > I don't even know where to begin Possibly because you don’t have a good point to make. Most people that grow up in bad places or situations don’t become criminals. Criminal acts may occur more frequently in certain places but the vast majority of people from those places do not become criminals. And what do you know about me growing up? I grew up around a lot of these types of “horrible situations” and most the kids turned out. Sone choose to commit crimes and sone died or were incarcerated because of those choices.
  - virgildotcodes 4y ago
    > Possibly because you don’t have a good point to make. Consider the other possibilities. If someone confidently told you that our flat Earth is 6,000 years old, where would you begin? There's a lot to unpack, and you're not even certain if all the work will be worth doing or just a waste of time. > Most people that grow up in bad places or situations don’t become criminals. Most people who smoke don't get lung cancer. So by your logic have we proven that smoking doesn't cause lung cancer? Poverty, in the US and globally, is correlated with higher crime rates. Isn't it such a strange coincidence that people who happen to be born into poverty also consistently happen to "choose" to commit more crimes, given that their environment has nothing to do with their choices? Shouldn't crime rates be equal across all socioeconomic classes? > I grew up around a lot of these types of “horrible situations” and most the kids turned out. Again, most people who do X don't end up Y is in no way a valid argument that X doesn't cause Y.
mehphp 4y ago
If that were true, wouldn’t crime rates be evenly distributed among income/circumstances? You don’t find it convincing that poorer/less-educated places tend to have higher crime rates? I’m not saying people aren’t culpable for their crimes, but surely it’s not as simple as people “consciously choosing” to become criminals.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  > If that were true, wouldn’t crime rates be evenly distributed among income/circumstances? Just because some people from lower income brackets choose to risk their livelihoods by doing crimes doesn’t mean there isn’t boundless opportunities. If a person would rather gangbang or sling meth instead of doing something productive then that’s their choice. There aren’t exactly a bunch of dudes desperate for cancer treatments they can’t afford so they turn to criminal enterprise to fund it. They choose the lifestyle.
  - mehphp 4y ago
    Again though, if that were the case (that it's simply a choice and opportunity has nothing to do with it), we should see the same rate of people choosing crime among affluent people. It's simply not true that people in lower income have the same opportunities. They don't have access to the same quality of education, people who care about their career prospects or the ability to afford higher education.
    - nemo44x 4y ago
      You’re changing the argument again. I never said the “same opportunities”. I simply said there are opportunities available in sufficient numbers that crime is no excuse. Poor people aren’t as stupid as you think. Most don’t turn to crime. To reverse your logic, affluent people should never commit crimes but yet sone do too. People make choices. I think this was once called the soft bigotry of low expectations. You are a bigot by your logic. Looking down on poor people is offensive.
      - 4y ago

MomoXenosaga 4y ago

One thing that always surprised me is that felons can't vote in America. In the Netherlands only in a few political cases after WW2 did people lose their right to vote or enter parliament.

notlukesky 4y ago
The ethnic makeup is allegedly the reason behind that.

dcminter 4y ago

> or even locksmith (yes, I've seen that, as ridiculous as it sounds), that might actually help them As it happens, in the UK there's a chain of locksmiths (they do a few other things, but key cutting is their stock in trade) called Timpson that employs many ex-offenders: https://www.timpson-group.co.uk/timpson-foundation/ex-offenders/ https://www.timpson-group.co.uk/timpson-foundation/ex-offend...

phanimahesh 4y ago

> The philosophy in the US seems to be that you just have to change people I'm not sure what you mean by this. To me it looks like prisons in US are a good business and good for business due to cheap slave labor. Many places have for profit prisons, high repeat offense rates and ridiculous incarceration rates. This is all from an external point of view, I'm not from the US.