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Serious question: why is the US trying to (or is already preventing) China from acquiring EUV chip tech? What’s the reason for such an aggressive intervention i

by ak39 4y ago

Serious question: why is the US trying to (or is already preventing) China from acquiring EUV chip tech? What’s the reason for such an aggressive intervention in a free market?

kube-system 4y ago
The best military technology needs the best silicon. The US has long placed export controls on technology with military applications.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  So then how come they're right next to China, "an unstable hostile power", and not in the middle of mainland US?
  - Teever 4y ago
    Globalism. The oligarchs in the west decided to outsource key industries to developing countries to increase their profit margins. Now they're scrambling to fix those mistakes.
    - analognoise 4y ago
      Which is why forced birth is making a comeback - the only way to ensure local production now is to ensure you have a permanent underclass you can squeeze for your profits. As globalism unwinds, there will be an open desire to roll back child labor and environmental laws as well as birth choice. We'll get factories back in the USA - and wish we hadn't. Or we'll see a massive expansion in prison labor, even worse than we have now.
      - mycall 4y ago
        > Which is why forced birth is making a comeback - the only way to ensure local production now is to ensure you have a permanent underclass you can squeeze for your profits. Correlation not causation.
      - kube-system 4y ago
        That makes no sense. If the right was trying to build an underclass of workers, then the easiest way to do it would be to not build a wall at the southern border. The simple explanation here is the correct one: they oppose abortion on social grounds.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  Military electronics aren't cutting edge. Modern processes are a liability for ruggedness and temperature extremes.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Not all military electronics are deployed on the battlefield.
Sakos 4y ago
> free market There's no such thing as a free market in our world. It's just a myth. Everything is regulated or under the purview of treaties or laws.
to11mtm 4y ago
I'm a little surprised in ASML's pivot here TBH. Just earlier this year they were complaining that Chinese companies were ripping off their IP [0] and IIRC even within the last 2-3 years they were themselves hesitant to send bleeding edge tech over for similar reasons. I wonder what has caused their tune to change. That said, if I'm reading the tea leaves properly... I think the last couple years were a wake-up call to the US that not only are they overly dependent on other countries for critical components, but that China is far closer to becoming 'self sufficient' than us (1). Ukraine was a bit of a wake-up call to us, that we are too afraid of nuclear escalation (2) but also to China that embargoes can happen more quickly than you'd expect and hurt almost as fast. What this means however, is we are now both in a race for self sufficiency on this front. ... Really random question, I wonder why Mexico doesn't have more fabs? ---- 1 - I think the US has a weird definition of 'self sufficiency' mind you. For instance in some cases it seems the attitude is 'Oh we did that again and can ramp up.' As a general comparison, I'm betting the possibility of getting a '100% China content' vehicle is far higher than getting a '100% USA content' vehicle. 2 - Without getting into it, there was a short window early on in the Ukraine conflict where I would have doubted Putin's willingness to go nuclear. IMO It's one of those cases where the would police card may have been worth playing, were it not for our missteps in using it over the last 20 years. [0] - https://www.theregister.com/2022/02/11/asml_chinese_rival_ip_abuse/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/02/11/asml_chinese_rival_ip...

by ak39 4y ago

Serious question: why is the US trying to (or is already preventing) China from acquiring EUV chip tech? What’s the reason for such an aggressive intervention in a free market?

kube-system 4y ago

The best military technology needs the best silicon. The US has long placed export controls on technology with military applications.

vladvasiliu 4y ago
So then how come they're right next to China, "an unstable hostile power", and not in the middle of mainland US?
- Teever 4y ago
  Globalism. The oligarchs in the west decided to outsource key industries to developing countries to increase their profit margins. Now they're scrambling to fix those mistakes.
  - analognoise 4y ago
    Which is why forced birth is making a comeback - the only way to ensure local production now is to ensure you have a permanent underclass you can squeeze for your profits. As globalism unwinds, there will be an open desire to roll back child labor and environmental laws as well as birth choice. We'll get factories back in the USA - and wish we hadn't. Or we'll see a massive expansion in prison labor, even worse than we have now.
    - mycall 4y ago
      > Which is why forced birth is making a comeback - the only way to ensure local production now is to ensure you have a permanent underclass you can squeeze for your profits. Correlation not causation.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      That makes no sense. If the right was trying to build an underclass of workers, then the easiest way to do it would be to not build a wall at the southern border. The simple explanation here is the correct one: they oppose abortion on social grounds.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
Military electronics aren't cutting edge. Modern processes are a liability for ruggedness and temperature extremes.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Not all military electronics are deployed on the battlefield.

Sakos 4y ago

> free market There's no such thing as a free market in our world. It's just a myth. Everything is regulated or under the purview of treaties or laws.

to11mtm 4y ago

I'm a little surprised in ASML's pivot here TBH. Just earlier this year they were complaining that Chinese companies were ripping off their IP [0] and IIRC even within the last 2-3 years they were themselves hesitant to send bleeding edge tech over for similar reasons. I wonder what has caused their tune to change. That said, if I'm reading the tea leaves properly... I think the last couple years were a wake-up call to the US that not only are they overly dependent on other countries for critical components, but that China is far closer to becoming 'self sufficient' than us (1). Ukraine was a bit of a wake-up call to us, that we are too afraid of nuclear escalation (2) but also to China that embargoes can happen more quickly than you'd expect and hurt almost as fast. What this means however, is we are now both in a race for self sufficiency on this front. ... Really random question, I wonder why Mexico doesn't have more fabs? ---- 1 - I think the US has a weird definition of 'self sufficiency' mind you. For instance in some cases it seems the attitude is 'Oh we did that again and can ramp up.' As a general comparison, I'm betting the possibility of getting a '100% China content' vehicle is far higher than getting a '100% USA content' vehicle. 2 - Without getting into it, there was a short window early on in the Ukraine conflict where I would have doubted Putin's willingness to go nuclear. IMO It's one of those cases where the would police card may have been worth playing, were it not for our missteps in using it over the last 20 years. [0] - https://www.theregister.com/2022/02/11/asml_chinese_rival_ip_abuse/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/02/11/asml_chinese_rival_ip...