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The difficulty back then was mostly caused by the technology of the day when targeting was done by hand and sight, and where the pilot flew the plane by looking

by belorn 4y ago

The difficulty back then was mostly caused by the technology of the day when targeting was done by hand and sight, and where the pilot flew the plane by looking out from a window and using eye sight and memory to figure out where they were. Those technical issues of bomber planes are long gone, but the vulnerability of damns are just as they were 80 years ago. A bunker buster would go through the concrete as a knife through butter, and the targeting would be done with laser precision. The navigation and execution would today be done by computers. A cruise missile and a lancaster has very little in shared technology, and depending on definition isn't even in the same category. The construction of a 1940 hydroelectric damn and a hydroelectric damn in 2022 is basically indistinguishable. Concrete holding up water is concrete holding up water.

Retric 4y ago
The technical issues are still significant because you need to detonate underwater next to the dam making current smart bombs useless. Individual, Bunker busters fail because the hole is too small, it’s easy to patch and doesn't let enough water out to be destructive. Multiple bunker busters used together can work, but it’s still challenging. If look at the actual dams from WWII you notice they all got damaged about half way up and only blew out a section of the dam. This is because thickness increases dramatically with depth and bombs only have so much energy. They needed the pressure of a dam at near maximum capacity to work, which is why several other dams services just fine.
- belorn 4y ago
  While I agree there would be issues to solve, bombs like the massive ordnance penetrator seem like it could do some damage with its 30,000-pound load (the dam busters used 9,000-pound loads). But even if we went with the same 80 year old designs of bombs as in world war 2, the biggest challenges with Operation Chastise has been solved today by the user of precision-guided munition, drones and cruise missiles. The pilots of Operation Chastise had a major challenge flying so low, with such a heavy payload, with a very narrow target window, using technology that was neither precise nor easy to use. They could also not avoid flak from anti-air, and the explosion from the bomb was a major threat to the plane forcing the pilot to balance their own and crewmen life with that of the mission. Misty weather also prevented one plane from even find their target. It was a very risky mission.
  - Retric 4y ago
    The issue with current penetrators is they aren't designed for the mission. Reusing old designs but now with better guidance systems is really designing a new weapon system based on older principles which means a full R&D cycle and hoping people haven't built defenses for such an old approach. There are three basic angles of attack, from the front, top, and water. Anything that comes in from the front or top and then detonates has a large hole to let energy back out without damaging the structure. The same issue also applies to a water entry with current perpetrators as these things are designed for high speed impacts which creates a large void behind the bomb. Ideally you want something that lands in exactly the right spot and then slowly sinks to the right depth. And of course no netting to be around the dam to make the mission that much more difficult. Which gets back to my previous point, it’s clearly possible, just technically difficult.

by belorn 4y ago

Retric 4y ago

The technical issues are still significant because you need to detonate underwater next to the dam making current smart bombs useless. Individual, Bunker busters fail because the hole is too small, it’s easy to patch and doesn't let enough water out to be destructive. Multiple bunker busters used together can work, but it’s still challenging. If look at the actual dams from WWII you notice they all got damaged about half way up and only blew out a section of the dam. This is because thickness increases dramatically with depth and bombs only have so much energy. They needed the pressure of a dam at near maximum capacity to work, which is why several other dams services just fine.

belorn 4y ago
While I agree there would be issues to solve, bombs like the massive ordnance penetrator seem like it could do some damage with its 30,000-pound load (the dam busters used 9,000-pound loads). But even if we went with the same 80 year old designs of bombs as in world war 2, the biggest challenges with Operation Chastise has been solved today by the user of precision-guided munition, drones and cruise missiles. The pilots of Operation Chastise had a major challenge flying so low, with such a heavy payload, with a very narrow target window, using technology that was neither precise nor easy to use. They could also not avoid flak from anti-air, and the explosion from the bomb was a major threat to the plane forcing the pilot to balance their own and crewmen life with that of the mission. Misty weather also prevented one plane from even find their target. It was a very risky mission.
- Retric 4y ago
  The issue with current penetrators is they aren't designed for the mission. Reusing old designs but now with better guidance systems is really designing a new weapon system based on older principles which means a full R&D cycle and hoping people haven't built defenses for such an old approach. There are three basic angles of attack, from the front, top, and water. Anything that comes in from the front or top and then detonates has a large hole to let energy back out without damaging the structure. The same issue also applies to a water entry with current perpetrators as these things are designed for high speed impacts which creates a large void behind the bomb. Ideally you want something that lands in exactly the right spot and then slowly sinks to the right depth. And of course no netting to be around the dam to make the mission that much more difficult. Which gets back to my previous point, it’s clearly possible, just technically difficult.