7 ms·

For a layperson, this seems like such a no-brainer: you're basically upgrading open parking lots to car ports. Drivers should love that, no? The lobbying angle

For a layperson, this seems like such a no-brainer: you're basically upgrading open parking lots to car ports. Drivers should love that, no? The lobbying angle explains A LOT. Of course, it's entrenched players clinging on to their profits. Oh well. The cost argument is interesting.. one would think it would be cheaper to build on already-developed lots, since no earth-moving and other infrastructure work is required -- but it looks like the structures must conform to a higher standard. Nobody cares if a panel topples in some remote field, but it one falls on someone's car, bad press and lawsuits. I certainly hope things move forward and we see more solar over the desolate landscape of the endless parking lots in North America. If anything, the promise "free" power to the lot owners could tip the scales.

kumarvvr 4y ago
In crowded city centers, i doubt wind would be fast enough to topple panels. Even so, the frames are sturdy enough to hold the panels against strong winds.
- freddie_mercury 4y ago
  Crowded city centres have more wind due to the Venturi Effect, not less.
  - rob74 4y ago
    Generally there are no huge parking lots in crowded city centers (or, if there were, they would be shaded by the highrise buildings producing the Venturi effect, so no good for solar panels), so the problem would take care of itself. But anyway, I don't think engineering a roof over a parking lot so it can support a solar panel and not fall over is an unsolvable problem.
    - freddie_mercury 4y ago
      I agree but the OP is the one who brought up crowded city centres like that was relevant to the amount of wind. I don't understand what relationship they were trying to suggest there.
Spooky23 4y ago
Most of the issue is around the funding model of developments. Basically, the owners of these things are usually syndicated and are in the business of harvesting money from taxes via accelerated depreciation. Having an asset that is producing money breaks the business model… they want to lose money on paper for the first few years. Usually when I see these types of things they are local businesses, banks or other entities that actually own their own property, or leaseholders making their own improvements to save opex. A few Targets near me have solar roofs, for example.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 4y ago
  Currently, commercial solar installations can be depreciated 100% in the first year, which is a pretty strong tax incentive for developers. This is scheduled to reduce to 20% for systems placed in service after 2022. I haven’t looked at the new energy bill so not sure if it would extend the current treatment.
happyopossum 4y ago
> one would think it would be cheaper to build on already-developed lots, since no earth-moving and other infrastructure work is required Nope - trenching through a concrete or blacktop parking lot is much more work than running conduit on undeveloped land. Also, you’ve got to shut down your parking lot for a few weeks to do the work. It makes sense to do when building a new parking lot, in fact I see that kinda frequently these days, but retrofitting one seems like a lot of work
- lostapathy 4y ago
  Why dig trenches? Run the wiring in the overhead canopy.
  - extra88 4y ago
    Maybe, but underground wires avoids problems caused by storms or people driving into structures.
    - pjerem 4y ago
      People driving into structures is already a solved issue in any covered parking, solar or not. We know how to build structures on steel poles that does not fall apart when people accidentally hit them with their car. You can even add steel bumpers around the poles like in any covered parking lot.
    - MayeulC 4y ago
      Make the wires run through newly created speed bumps. It's a parking lot, and limiting speed should secure the panels even more.
- extra88 4y ago
  You don’t have to do the whole lot at once, it could be done one segment at a time. And many lots are underutilized most of the time, built to accommodate the need at peak times of year.
  - 4y ago
Eleison23 4y ago
Solar panels must also be maintained. Even a canopy without electronics on it, or a lot without a canopy on it, must be maintained to some degree. And parking lots are often mandated, with a specified capacity, for every use. Now that we're in an era where cities are moving toward eliminating cars from the road, reducing parking lot acreage, and easing those aforementioned mandates. So, as a business, we'll want to calculate the tradeoffs of installation and maintenance, as well as the understanding that we're less able or willing to demolish a productive solar array when I need to build something else in its stead. Installing solar arrays over a parking lot may essentially lock-in that desolate acreage while the value of the land underneath them begins to ramp up.
quickthrower2 4y ago
No one is talking about the grid connection and batteries though. You will need batteries somewhere because demand and supply don't match. Then there is servicing the solar. And engineering/architecture bespoke to each case. I can see how a large solar farm might make all that more efficient. Put it this way, home solar is not always a no-brainer, financially, and that doesn't usually involve building a structure, just attaching them to a roof.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Home solar is strictly more expensive than utility solar. If your area allows you to opt into power from a solar farm, and pay the solar farm's rates, jump on it.
  - quickthrower2 4y ago
    Why is car park solar not more expensive then? Say you have 1000 car parks, 1000 plans you need to send to local governments, 1000 architectural plans to deal with, and son on. Some of the things will scale but a lot wont.
    - ericcumbee 4y ago
      if you own 1000 parking lots you already did that, if you pulled a permit to repave them you've done it again.
      - quickthrower2 4y ago
        Repave is a different thing to build. You are changing the landscape. NIMBYists can have a say, for example. Also who said one person owns 1000 lots. I am saying there are 1000 separate lots we want to solarize, vs. a plant. If they are owned by different people, then you need a business to market, educate and sell this to them etc. Which is another layer.
- prawn 4y ago
  For commercial installations, demand and supply often match very well. They're not trying to get off grid but reduce bills. Whereas many homes with working parents and school age children are using power after sunset, for offices and shopping centres, they're running something like air-conditioning while the sun's up. Where I live, home solar pays for itself in 4-5 years; for our office building, it was 3-4 years.
ttyprintk 4y ago
In the case of Edison Electrical Institute, your own utility might pay dues to them —- to lobby against your interests as a consumer. I think utilities are not required to report trade association dues on your bill.

kumarvvr 4y ago

In crowded city centers, i doubt wind would be fast enough to topple panels. Even so, the frames are sturdy enough to hold the panels against strong winds.

freddie_mercury 4y ago
Crowded city centres have more wind due to the Venturi Effect, not less.
- rob74 4y ago
  Generally there are no huge parking lots in crowded city centers (or, if there were, they would be shaded by the highrise buildings producing the Venturi effect, so no good for solar panels), so the problem would take care of itself. But anyway, I don't think engineering a roof over a parking lot so it can support a solar panel and not fall over is an unsolvable problem.
  - freddie_mercury 4y ago
    I agree but the OP is the one who brought up crowded city centres like that was relevant to the amount of wind. I don't understand what relationship they were trying to suggest there.

Spooky23 4y ago

Most of the issue is around the funding model of developments. Basically, the owners of these things are usually syndicated and are in the business of harvesting money from taxes via accelerated depreciation. Having an asset that is producing money breaks the business model… they want to lose money on paper for the first few years. Usually when I see these types of things they are local businesses, banks or other entities that actually own their own property, or leaseholders making their own improvements to save opex. A few Targets near me have solar roofs, for example.

fshbbdssbbgdd 4y ago
Currently, commercial solar installations can be depreciated 100% in the first year, which is a pretty strong tax incentive for developers. This is scheduled to reduce to 20% for systems placed in service after 2022. I haven’t looked at the new energy bill so not sure if it would extend the current treatment.

happyopossum 4y ago

> one would think it would be cheaper to build on already-developed lots, since no earth-moving and other infrastructure work is required Nope - trenching through a concrete or blacktop parking lot is much more work than running conduit on undeveloped land. Also, you’ve got to shut down your parking lot for a few weeks to do the work. It makes sense to do when building a new parking lot, in fact I see that kinda frequently these days, but retrofitting one seems like a lot of work

lostapathy 4y ago
Why dig trenches? Run the wiring in the overhead canopy.
- extra88 4y ago
  Maybe, but underground wires avoids problems caused by storms or people driving into structures.
  - pjerem 4y ago
    People driving into structures is already a solved issue in any covered parking, solar or not. We know how to build structures on steel poles that does not fall apart when people accidentally hit them with their car. You can even add steel bumpers around the poles like in any covered parking lot.
  - MayeulC 4y ago
    Make the wires run through newly created speed bumps. It's a parking lot, and limiting speed should secure the panels even more.
extra88 4y ago
You don’t have to do the whole lot at once, it could be done one segment at a time. And many lots are underutilized most of the time, built to accommodate the need at peak times of year.
- 4y ago

Eleison23 4y ago

Solar panels must also be maintained. Even a canopy without electronics on it, or a lot without a canopy on it, must be maintained to some degree. And parking lots are often mandated, with a specified capacity, for every use. Now that we're in an era where cities are moving toward eliminating cars from the road, reducing parking lot acreage, and easing those aforementioned mandates. So, as a business, we'll want to calculate the tradeoffs of installation and maintenance, as well as the understanding that we're less able or willing to demolish a productive solar array when I need to build something else in its stead. Installing solar arrays over a parking lot may essentially lock-in that desolate acreage while the value of the land underneath them begins to ramp up.

quickthrower2 4y ago

No one is talking about the grid connection and batteries though. You will need batteries somewhere because demand and supply don't match. Then there is servicing the solar. And engineering/architecture bespoke to each case. I can see how a large solar farm might make all that more efficient. Put it this way, home solar is not always a no-brainer, financially, and that doesn't usually involve building a structure, just attaching them to a roof.

ncmncm 4y ago
Home solar is strictly more expensive than utility solar. If your area allows you to opt into power from a solar farm, and pay the solar farm's rates, jump on it.
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  Why is car park solar not more expensive then? Say you have 1000 car parks, 1000 plans you need to send to local governments, 1000 architectural plans to deal with, and son on. Some of the things will scale but a lot wont.
  - ericcumbee 4y ago
    if you own 1000 parking lots you already did that, if you pulled a permit to repave them you've done it again.
    - quickthrower2 4y ago
      Repave is a different thing to build. You are changing the landscape. NIMBYists can have a say, for example. Also who said one person owns 1000 lots. I am saying there are 1000 separate lots we want to solarize, vs. a plant. If they are owned by different people, then you need a business to market, educate and sell this to them etc. Which is another layer.
prawn 4y ago
For commercial installations, demand and supply often match very well. They're not trying to get off grid but reduce bills. Whereas many homes with working parents and school age children are using power after sunset, for offices and shopping centres, they're running something like air-conditioning while the sun's up. Where I live, home solar pays for itself in 4-5 years; for our office building, it was 3-4 years.

ttyprintk 4y ago

In the case of Edison Electrical Institute, your own utility might pay dues to them —- to lobby against your interests as a consumer. I think utilities are not required to report trade association dues on your bill.