7 ms·

What a fascinating and sad article. $0.10 an hour is an unreal, unreasonably low rate. And the lack of necessities like soap is startling.

by idoh 4y ago

14 4y ago
I wouldn’t treat my enemies that bad. And we spend a lot of time judging other countries and how they treat prisoners. What prisoners need is a prisoners union but prisons have built protections into preventing communications between jails. If all prisoners went on strike at the same time many things that rely on slave labour would come to a quick stop and the slave labour money machine would come to a crashing stop.
okasaki 4y ago
How much should they be paid? Presumably not as much as they would be outside the prison, given that the government pays for their accommodation, bills, food, medical, etc.
- sneak 4y ago
  There is no reason that the minumum wage should not apply. Otherwise, you get institutionalized slavery, like we have now and is documented in this article.
  - okasaki 4y ago
    But isn't prison special and exempt from our distaste against slavery? How could it ever not be akin to slavery even if they were paid?
    - monniez 4y ago
      According to the article there are not enough jobs to go around, so you are not forced to do a job. However, if you do take a job, you should be paid for it, like everybody else. This is important to counter prisons for profit schemes as well as improving the wellbeing of the prisoners.
  - implements 4y ago
    That’s true, however the nearest analogue to non-criminal forced-labour ‘prisoners’ would be the military - and in the UK that makes deductions for food, housing and utilities. Top of my head, I’d estimate an effective hourly rate of about £1 to £2 for a week’s work at minimum wage minus payment to the prison for accommodation and food - but then there is an issue of whether prison labour is of real economic value and not often a form of ‘make work’ ie is sewing mail-bags really worth £10 an hour? Perhaps 50p per hour (net) is actually a fair return for value produced?
    - Ekaros 4y ago
      If work doesn't provide value that is higher than minimum wage it is work not worth doing. It is not like we must provide prisoners work. We could offer them free education too instead. And not even pay them for taking it.
      - implements 4y ago
        It might be worth doing if it’s of psychological or behavioural benefit to the prisoners ie it prevents boredom / fighting / depression, and inculcates an ‘employee state of mind’ (usefulness, discipline, and ‘earn to spend’).
        monniez 4y ago
        That’s fine if the state was providing these activities as unpaid or low paid hobbies in addition to actual jobs. The problem is that the state is exploiting the prisoners for profit. The profit should go to the prisoners doing the work.
  - josh_fyi 4y ago
    In the US, that is constitutional, though still a terrible thing. https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-13 https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-13
- monniez 4y ago
  Prevailing market rates, at or above minimum wage, sounds about right. Prisoners should be allowed to acquire and purchase necessities without markups with their earnings. Prison facilities and services should be free.
  - okasaki 4y ago
    There are people who work full time and after their monthly expenses are paid hardly have anything left over, but prisoners should just pocket it all?
    - probably_wrong 4y ago
      Yes, they should "pocket it all". Without the opportunity to save _some_ money they are guaranteed to end up homeless (or worse) as soon as they leave the jail. Being "rich" in prison doesn't mean you get to improve your gaming rig or buy a Roomba, it just means you don't have to consider whether to spend $2 to see the doctor. I would be fine with that. Also, everything in prison is reported to be expensive, bad quality, and full of extra fees. So if they only have one expensive brand of toothpaste, they should at least earn enough to afford _those_ prices.
    - Ekaros 4y ago
      The society choose to lock them up. And part of that contract is to pay for expenses. It is not prisoners problem, society could as well kick them out and then they would need to pay for those themselves.
      - okasaki 4y ago
        I'm not sure I find this argument convincing. Would you say that if I speed and get a fine, then society has chosen to fine me and so they should pay the fine?
        monniez 4y ago
        You do not become a ward of the state when you receive a speeding ticket.
- ldoughty 4y ago
  I can't cite a source, but I suspect recently freed individuals are more likely to end up back in jail if you bus them to the nearest city and give them $100... This makes them entirely reliant on others... Some will pick family, others will leverage social services.. and others might have no family/friends and reject "assistance"... Hopefully friends/family provide support, a place to live, stability.... But if that family is a criminal gang... Of course they are going to be encouraged to break the law again... By giving people more money, it helps people in all situations to avoid going back to prison. Money helps even if you seek social assistance -- you can have better rent options, you can have better clothing for interviews, better peace of mind in their financial situation (because they might not be free and clear of previous debts, either)... Some (if not all) states require you to continue paying debts and taxes (e.g. child support) while incarcerated.. so at $.10/hour you almost certainly had to sell everything you own even if you're incarcerated for under a year.
  - okasaki 4y ago
    There's no doubt that the US criminal justice system is profoundly dysfunctional, starting with the fact that most of the accused are successfully extorted by prosecutors into accepting plea bargains. But simply on the topic of paying prisoners the market rate for labor, the idea does seem unjust to me. Let's say we have two people, Jack and Jill, who both work a low paying job and are miserable. One day Jill decides to rob a store, but is caught and goes to prison for a few years. In prison she is first working some menial job, but a government program trains her in some skilled labor (we might imagine she is learning to code). After completing her sentence she is released and has the entire amount that she earned (minus no expenses) and trained a valuable job skill that will enable her to get a better paying job. Meanwhile Jack, who committed no crime, has had to pay for his expenses (which eat up the majority of his pay), and received no help or training. We reward Jill for her criminal behavior by "fixing" her life so she is less likely to commit crimes in the future, but we ignore Jack even though he was equally miserable, but chose not to commit a crime.
    - adhesive_wombat 4y ago
      Jill also had to spend a few years in prison, so it's not like she "got away with it" and scammed the taxpayer into improving her life. The real issue is that currently both Jack and Jill are getting screwed over by society. We should fix both. It wouldn't even be that expensive and it would in fact probably lead to greater happiness and lower overall societal costs like healthcare (e.g. poor people kicking the can until they can't escape it any longer and now it's a very expensive stage 4 cancer) and justice (don't need to pay for as many expensive courts if there's less crime). And probably more tax take as everyone in the bottom 90% of society basically spends what they earn and doesn't hide it in the Caymans. But greater and more equitable overall growth is still less short-term growth for the top, so we can't have it.
- tyingq 4y ago
  >pays for their accommodation, bills, food, medical, etc It varies wildly in the US, but some of those like "medical" and "food", are debatable. Our prison system is truly barbaric in some places.
- welshwelsh 4y ago
  They shouldn't be working at all. Prison labor is exploitation We should encourage reading and education in prisons instead
josh_fyi 4y ago
In Israel, prisoners can work for about 65% of minimum wage. This allows them to learn the value of work and of saving for the future. (This describes the court case that boosted the salary from ~40% https://news.walla.co.il/item/3409487 https://news.walla.co.il/item/3409487 )
RF_Savage 4y ago
Well, it was a convient carveout in post-civil war anti-slavery legistlation. One can wonder why that was done, but it still exists regardless of that. That said, prison labor is quite common across the globe and considered rehabilitating. But here in Finland the prisoners are paid minimum wage or more per law. This change happened in the last 15years or so and was mostly about it being considered unfair competition, which is an angle that might work in USA too. Nobody should be forced to work for slave wages in slave conditions.
- chmod775 4y ago
  > That said, prison labor is quite common across the globe and considered rehabilitating. I cannot speak for Finland specifically, but in many places prisoners are taught and can earn qualifications while in prison. If they can leave prison with qualifications as a cook, car mechanic, car painter, carpenter, electrician, or even locksmith (yes, I've seen that, as ridiculous as it sounds), that might actually help them. However in the US prisoners are often exploited to perform utterly menial tasks. Forget any formal training or earning qualifications. Even if they would perform the same task outside prison, they probably couldn't compete with $0.10/h prison labor. If that cheap human labor didn't exist, those tasks would likely just be automated. So there's a bit of nuance there and I wouldn't consider all kinds of prison labor rehabilitating. The philosophy in the US seems to be that you just have to change people: Instead of giving people opportunities to lead a normal life after prison, options are actually taken away from felons. Most other western countries recognize that many crimes are also a result of circumstances and lack of opportunities. The easiest way to get people to follow your rules is not punishment, it's making them want to do it because conformity is the path of least resistance.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    > Most other western countries recognize that many crimes are also a result of circumstances and lack of opportunities. In the USA that’s simply not true. There are boundless opportunities for every individual to take advantage of. There is a labor shortage at the moment. There are severe shortages of people that are craftsmen as well and tons of free training online. No one is desperate due to the circumstances created by the USA. They make the conscious choice to become a criminal. Criminals are not victims and the coddling, condescending attitudes to criminals is degrading to them if anything. They made the choice and should own it like you’d expect from any adult.

What a fascinating and sad article. $0.10 an hour is an unreal, unreasonably low rate. And the lack of necessities like soap is startling.

by idoh 4y ago

What a fascinating and sad article. $0.10 an hour is an unreal, unreasonably low rate. And the lack of necessities like soap is startling.

14 4y ago

I wouldn’t treat my enemies that bad. And we spend a lot of time judging other countries and how they treat prisoners. What prisoners need is a prisoners union but prisons have built protections into preventing communications between jails. If all prisoners went on strike at the same time many things that rely on slave labour would come to a quick stop and the slave labour money machine would come to a crashing stop.

okasaki 4y ago

How much should they be paid? Presumably not as much as they would be outside the prison, given that the government pays for their accommodation, bills, food, medical, etc.

sneak 4y ago
There is no reason that the minumum wage should not apply. Otherwise, you get institutionalized slavery, like we have now and is documented in this article.
- okasaki 4y ago
  But isn't prison special and exempt from our distaste against slavery? How could it ever not be akin to slavery even if they were paid?
  - monniez 4y ago
    According to the article there are not enough jobs to go around, so you are not forced to do a job. However, if you do take a job, you should be paid for it, like everybody else. This is important to counter prisons for profit schemes as well as improving the wellbeing of the prisoners.
- implements 4y ago
  That’s true, however the nearest analogue to non-criminal forced-labour ‘prisoners’ would be the military - and in the UK that makes deductions for food, housing and utilities. Top of my head, I’d estimate an effective hourly rate of about £1 to £2 for a week’s work at minimum wage minus payment to the prison for accommodation and food - but then there is an issue of whether prison labour is of real economic value and not often a form of ‘make work’ ie is sewing mail-bags really worth £10 an hour? Perhaps 50p per hour (net) is actually a fair return for value produced?
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    If work doesn't provide value that is higher than minimum wage it is work not worth doing. It is not like we must provide prisoners work. We could offer them free education too instead. And not even pay them for taking it.
    - implements 4y ago
      It might be worth doing if it’s of psychological or behavioural benefit to the prisoners ie it prevents boredom / fighting / depression, and inculcates an ‘employee state of mind’ (usefulness, discipline, and ‘earn to spend’).
      - monniez 4y ago
        That’s fine if the state was providing these activities as unpaid or low paid hobbies in addition to actual jobs. The problem is that the state is exploiting the prisoners for profit. The profit should go to the prisoners doing the work.
- josh_fyi 4y ago
  In the US, that is constitutional, though still a terrible thing. https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-13 https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-13
monniez 4y ago
Prevailing market rates, at or above minimum wage, sounds about right. Prisoners should be allowed to acquire and purchase necessities without markups with their earnings. Prison facilities and services should be free.
- okasaki 4y ago
  There are people who work full time and after their monthly expenses are paid hardly have anything left over, but prisoners should just pocket it all?
  - probably_wrong 4y ago
    Yes, they should "pocket it all". Without the opportunity to save _some_ money they are guaranteed to end up homeless (or worse) as soon as they leave the jail. Being "rich" in prison doesn't mean you get to improve your gaming rig or buy a Roomba, it just means you don't have to consider whether to spend $2 to see the doctor. I would be fine with that. Also, everything in prison is reported to be expensive, bad quality, and full of extra fees. So if they only have one expensive brand of toothpaste, they should at least earn enough to afford _those_ prices.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    The society choose to lock them up. And part of that contract is to pay for expenses. It is not prisoners problem, society could as well kick them out and then they would need to pay for those themselves.
    - okasaki 4y ago
      I'm not sure I find this argument convincing. Would you say that if I speed and get a fine, then society has chosen to fine me and so they should pay the fine?
      - monniez 4y ago
        You do not become a ward of the state when you receive a speeding ticket.
ldoughty 4y ago
I can't cite a source, but I suspect recently freed individuals are more likely to end up back in jail if you bus them to the nearest city and give them $100... This makes them entirely reliant on others... Some will pick family, others will leverage social services.. and others might have no family/friends and reject "assistance"... Hopefully friends/family provide support, a place to live, stability.... But if that family is a criminal gang... Of course they are going to be encouraged to break the law again... By giving people more money, it helps people in all situations to avoid going back to prison. Money helps even if you seek social assistance -- you can have better rent options, you can have better clothing for interviews, better peace of mind in their financial situation (because they might not be free and clear of previous debts, either)... Some (if not all) states require you to continue paying debts and taxes (e.g. child support) while incarcerated.. so at $.10/hour you almost certainly had to sell everything you own even if you're incarcerated for under a year.
- okasaki 4y ago
  There's no doubt that the US criminal justice system is profoundly dysfunctional, starting with the fact that most of the accused are successfully extorted by prosecutors into accepting plea bargains. But simply on the topic of paying prisoners the market rate for labor, the idea does seem unjust to me. Let's say we have two people, Jack and Jill, who both work a low paying job and are miserable. One day Jill decides to rob a store, but is caught and goes to prison for a few years. In prison she is first working some menial job, but a government program trains her in some skilled labor (we might imagine she is learning to code). After completing her sentence she is released and has the entire amount that she earned (minus no expenses) and trained a valuable job skill that will enable her to get a better paying job. Meanwhile Jack, who committed no crime, has had to pay for his expenses (which eat up the majority of his pay), and received no help or training. We reward Jill for her criminal behavior by "fixing" her life so she is less likely to commit crimes in the future, but we ignore Jack even though he was equally miserable, but chose not to commit a crime.
  - adhesive_wombat 4y ago
    Jill also had to spend a few years in prison, so it's not like she "got away with it" and scammed the taxpayer into improving her life. The real issue is that currently both Jack and Jill are getting screwed over by society. We should fix both. It wouldn't even be that expensive and it would in fact probably lead to greater happiness and lower overall societal costs like healthcare (e.g. poor people kicking the can until they can't escape it any longer and now it's a very expensive stage 4 cancer) and justice (don't need to pay for as many expensive courts if there's less crime). And probably more tax take as everyone in the bottom 90% of society basically spends what they earn and doesn't hide it in the Caymans. But greater and more equitable overall growth is still less short-term growth for the top, so we can't have it.
tyingq 4y ago
>pays for their accommodation, bills, food, medical, etc It varies wildly in the US, but some of those like "medical" and "food", are debatable. Our prison system is truly barbaric in some places.
welshwelsh 4y ago
They shouldn't be working at all. Prison labor is exploitation We should encourage reading and education in prisons instead

josh_fyi 4y ago

In Israel, prisoners can work for about 65% of minimum wage. This allows them to learn the value of work and of saving for the future. (This describes the court case that boosted the salary from ~40% https://news.walla.co.il/item/3409487 https://news.walla.co.il/item/3409487 )

RF_Savage 4y ago

Well, it was a convient carveout in post-civil war anti-slavery legistlation. One can wonder why that was done, but it still exists regardless of that. That said, prison labor is quite common across the globe and considered rehabilitating. But here in Finland the prisoners are paid minimum wage or more per law. This change happened in the last 15years or so and was mostly about it being considered unfair competition, which is an angle that might work in USA too. Nobody should be forced to work for slave wages in slave conditions.

chmod775 4y ago
> That said, prison labor is quite common across the globe and considered rehabilitating. I cannot speak for Finland specifically, but in many places prisoners are taught and can earn qualifications while in prison. If they can leave prison with qualifications as a cook, car mechanic, car painter, carpenter, electrician, or even locksmith (yes, I've seen that, as ridiculous as it sounds), that might actually help them. However in the US prisoners are often exploited to perform utterly menial tasks. Forget any formal training or earning qualifications. Even if they would perform the same task outside prison, they probably couldn't compete with $0.10/h prison labor. If that cheap human labor didn't exist, those tasks would likely just be automated. So there's a bit of nuance there and I wouldn't consider all kinds of prison labor rehabilitating. The philosophy in the US seems to be that you just have to change people: Instead of giving people opportunities to lead a normal life after prison, options are actually taken away from felons. Most other western countries recognize that many crimes are also a result of circumstances and lack of opportunities. The easiest way to get people to follow your rules is not punishment, it's making them want to do it because conformity is the path of least resistance.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  > Most other western countries recognize that many crimes are also a result of circumstances and lack of opportunities. In the USA that’s simply not true. There are boundless opportunities for every individual to take advantage of. There is a labor shortage at the moment. There are severe shortages of people that are craftsmen as well and tons of free training online. No one is desperate due to the circumstances created by the USA. They make the conscious choice to become a criminal. Criminals are not victims and the coddling, condescending attitudes to criminals is degrading to them if anything. They made the choice and should own it like you’d expect from any adult.