5 ms·

Many LED lightbulbs make claims about their expected lifetime. Except these numbers are often a fantasy. The LED itself may last almost forever, but the capacit

by fzzt 4y ago

Many LED lightbulbs make claims about their expected lifetime. Except these numbers are often a fantasy. The LED itself may last almost forever, but the capacitors commonly go bad in a year or so. I suspect that would be the reality with a lot of the proposed mandatory labeling for electronics, too.

userbinator 4y ago
They also severely overdrive the LEDs to get more brightness, at the cost of both reduced efficiency and lifetime. At least the Phoebus Cartel had an ostensible explanation (efficiency) for what they did. Doing the same with LED lighting is pure corporate greed. Some of the indicator LEDs on some of my electronics are many decades old, yet they are still functioning like when they were new. Clearly LEDs can last a long time, but there wouldn't be any profit in that. Here's some interesting discussion about the "Dubai Lamp", an attempt at going the opposite direction and actually making LEDs last significantly longer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27093793 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27093793
- eru 4y ago
  > Doing the same with LED lighting is pure corporate greed. How does it help the corporation make more money?
  - detaro 4y ago
    by forcing customers to buy new ones more often?
    - eru 4y ago
      That only works if there's something like brand loyalty or similar mechanism to make customers come back to the same manufacturer. If my gadget just failed long before I was promised, I am quite likely to shop around.
      - detaro 4y ago
        No, it also works when non-optimal designs are very common in the market. (Not helped with the fact that especially in electronics many brands have decreased in (perceived) quality, so even if something performed well people don't necessarily trust that newer versions are too, which makes actually good brands also less sticky)
        eru 4y ago
        I don't understand. Bad brands aren't sticky in this situation, are there. (I don't know whether good brands are sticky here.) So there's no extra incentives for planned obsolescence, because the next purchase is more than likely to go to a competitor. Or what do you mean?
        waits 4y ago
        They’re saying all brands use planned obsolescence to force consumers to buy lightbulbs (from any brand) more often, increasing sales for the whole industry, not one specific brand. This is how the Phoebus Cartel worked for incandescent bulbs. Every brand was in on it, it wasn’t about improving market share for specific brands.
        eru 4y ago
        That requires a lot of coordination. Any single company could break ranks?
      - sedro 4y ago
        There's a mechanism: if people want their bulbs to match, they might pick the same brand/model as a replacement
    - marginalia_nu 4y ago
      Wouldn't this sort of be a prisoner's dilemma sort of situation? The cartel hinges on every producer being complicit, if they are they get all long term small advantage, if they aren't, they and they alone get a huge short term advantage to the detriment of everyone else. If a single one of them doesn't play ball and start selling "forever lamps" that last a hundred years (slap some patents on running LEDs at their rating, why not), they'll effectively salt the earth for the entire market.
      - eru 4y ago
        And new competitors can enter the market, and existing producers know that.
- noSyncCloud 4y ago
  Extremely relevant article from Hackaday - https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/ https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-li...
  - aimor 4y ago
    So when I buy a 600 lumen LED bulb that burns 7 W, I'm not only getting hosed because they're overdriving the LEDs but I'm also using over twice as much electricity as I could be?
    - yetanotherloser 4y ago
      Not really. The "overdriving" (really just choosing a higher point on the current/output curve) is part of how they deliver that 600 lumen. If you put half as much electricity through those same LEDs they would in theory last longer. You could deliver 600 lumens for under 7w (but not as low as half) using a more expensive array of LEDs driven less hard and still get the longer lifetime, but it's not easy to be really sure whether the upfront cost and embedded energy would always be justified.
pixl97 4y ago
Pretty much any number you see on Amazon is a lie except from a very limited number if sellers.
- tomrod 4y ago
  Which ones are credible?
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    The answer to this question should probably come from a government or non-profit agency that will end being a adversarial to Amazon.
  - dreamcompiler 4y ago
    In the category of flashlights, Anker seems credible. Several others are lying by a factor of 100. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6q_0wxzClkg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6q_0wxzClkg
oezi 4y ago
I always return these LEDs because in Germany we do have 2 years of warranty by default.
yetanotherloser 4y ago
I'm surprised so many people's experience of LED bulbs is short lifetime. Most of the LED bulbs I ever bought have lasted many, many years. I only had one type ever fail and those looked clearly inferior in build to all the other types. ("free" with some light fittings, not my choice). Took one of those apart, no capacitors in the design any more but dodgy wire connections that creep with the hot-cold on-off cycle in an under-ventilated fitting. So am I a statistical outlier, or are most people getting the very worst dreg-quality bulbs, or are there a lot of very enclosed fittings out there cooking the lamps?
- wccrawford 4y ago
  I've got a lot of different brands of LED light bulbs and I think maybe one has "burned out" over the years. I have to wonder if maybe the power in their house is less "clean" than it should be, or if their area has a lot of power spikes or brownouts and they just don't realize it.
  - yetanotherloser 4y ago
    That's an interesting possibility I hadn't considered. I don't really have a handle on how robust these things innately are but I'm sure there is no room in the average bulb's bill of materials for any special handling for rough power.
- Dma54rhs 4y ago
  Same for me. Using random cheap leds, most of them 5 years old and zero failures.
- ChoGGi 4y ago
  My friend had about ten led potlights installed (by an electrician) two years ago, must've had a bad batch as one died and another is dim.
- fzzt 4y ago
  Recessed lighting fixtures are a common cause of problems with LEDs due to poor heat dissipation. But a lot of newer homes have recessed lighting, and in at least some parts of California, the fixtures are now required to be sealed (I guess for overall house energy efficiency).

by fzzt 4y ago

userbinator 4y ago

They also severely overdrive the LEDs to get more brightness, at the cost of both reduced efficiency and lifetime. At least the Phoebus Cartel had an ostensible explanation (efficiency) for what they did. Doing the same with LED lighting is pure corporate greed. Some of the indicator LEDs on some of my electronics are many decades old, yet they are still functioning like when they were new. Clearly LEDs can last a long time, but there wouldn't be any profit in that. Here's some interesting discussion about the "Dubai Lamp", an attempt at going the opposite direction and actually making LEDs last significantly longer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27093793 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27093793

eru 4y ago
> Doing the same with LED lighting is pure corporate greed. How does it help the corporation make more money?
- detaro 4y ago
  by forcing customers to buy new ones more often?
  - eru 4y ago
    That only works if there's something like brand loyalty or similar mechanism to make customers come back to the same manufacturer. If my gadget just failed long before I was promised, I am quite likely to shop around.
    - detaro 4y ago
      No, it also works when non-optimal designs are very common in the market. (Not helped with the fact that especially in electronics many brands have decreased in (perceived) quality, so even if something performed well people don't necessarily trust that newer versions are too, which makes actually good brands also less sticky)
      - eru 4y ago
        I don't understand. Bad brands aren't sticky in this situation, are there. (I don't know whether good brands are sticky here.) So there's no extra incentives for planned obsolescence, because the next purchase is more than likely to go to a competitor. Or what do you mean?
        waits 4y ago
        They’re saying all brands use planned obsolescence to force consumers to buy lightbulbs (from any brand) more often, increasing sales for the whole industry, not one specific brand. This is how the Phoebus Cartel worked for incandescent bulbs. Every brand was in on it, it wasn’t about improving market share for specific brands.
        eru 4y ago
        That requires a lot of coordination. Any single company could break ranks?
    - sedro 4y ago
      There's a mechanism: if people want their bulbs to match, they might pick the same brand/model as a replacement
  - marginalia_nu 4y ago
    Wouldn't this sort of be a prisoner's dilemma sort of situation? The cartel hinges on every producer being complicit, if they are they get all long term small advantage, if they aren't, they and they alone get a huge short term advantage to the detriment of everyone else. If a single one of them doesn't play ball and start selling "forever lamps" that last a hundred years (slap some patents on running LEDs at their rating, why not), they'll effectively salt the earth for the entire market.
    - eru 4y ago
      And new competitors can enter the market, and existing producers know that.
noSyncCloud 4y ago
Extremely relevant article from Hackaday - https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/ https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-li...
- aimor 4y ago
  So when I buy a 600 lumen LED bulb that burns 7 W, I'm not only getting hosed because they're overdriving the LEDs but I'm also using over twice as much electricity as I could be?
  - yetanotherloser 4y ago
    Not really. The "overdriving" (really just choosing a higher point on the current/output curve) is part of how they deliver that 600 lumen. If you put half as much electricity through those same LEDs they would in theory last longer. You could deliver 600 lumens for under 7w (but not as low as half) using a more expensive array of LEDs driven less hard and still get the longer lifetime, but it's not easy to be really sure whether the upfront cost and embedded energy would always be justified.

pixl97 4y ago

Pretty much any number you see on Amazon is a lie except from a very limited number if sellers.

tomrod 4y ago
Which ones are credible?
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  The answer to this question should probably come from a government or non-profit agency that will end being a adversarial to Amazon.
- dreamcompiler 4y ago
  In the category of flashlights, Anker seems credible. Several others are lying by a factor of 100. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6q_0wxzClkg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6q_0wxzClkg

oezi 4y ago

I always return these LEDs because in Germany we do have 2 years of warranty by default.

yetanotherloser 4y ago

I'm surprised so many people's experience of LED bulbs is short lifetime. Most of the LED bulbs I ever bought have lasted many, many years. I only had one type ever fail and those looked clearly inferior in build to all the other types. ("free" with some light fittings, not my choice). Took one of those apart, no capacitors in the design any more but dodgy wire connections that creep with the hot-cold on-off cycle in an under-ventilated fitting. So am I a statistical outlier, or are most people getting the very worst dreg-quality bulbs, or are there a lot of very enclosed fittings out there cooking the lamps?

wccrawford 4y ago
I've got a lot of different brands of LED light bulbs and I think maybe one has "burned out" over the years. I have to wonder if maybe the power in their house is less "clean" than it should be, or if their area has a lot of power spikes or brownouts and they just don't realize it.
- yetanotherloser 4y ago
  That's an interesting possibility I hadn't considered. I don't really have a handle on how robust these things innately are but I'm sure there is no room in the average bulb's bill of materials for any special handling for rough power.
Dma54rhs 4y ago
Same for me. Using random cheap leds, most of them 5 years old and zero failures.
ChoGGi 4y ago
My friend had about ten led potlights installed (by an electrician) two years ago, must've had a bad batch as one died and another is dim.
fzzt 4y ago
Recessed lighting fixtures are a common cause of problems with LEDs due to poor heat dissipation. But a lot of newer homes have recessed lighting, and in at least some parts of California, the fixtures are now required to be sealed (I guess for overall house energy efficiency).