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I have been a long time enthusiast of high power flashlights. We typically use 18350, 18650, 21700, or 26650. But I have been in dismay as even in this communit

I have been a long time enthusiast of high power flashlights. We typically use 18350, 18650, 21700, or 26650. But I have been in dismay as even in this community, companies are starting to move away from these standards and provide proprietary batteries (Olight) or sealed (some newer Fenix models). It would be good if * We could safely obtain reputable Li-ion batteries from reputable sources. I trust a handful of companies to vet their supply chain so I'm confident of authentic cells like Murata VT6, etc .. but its less than ideal. I don't think my mom would be able to just find a authentic 18650, and this has to pass the mom test * Easy way to recycle these cells. This needs to expand past home improvement stores, which often seem clueless as to the specifics of what they can accept

lucb1e 4y ago
Was wondering what these random numbers were, I expected a product number from a manufacturer. Instead: > An 18650 Battery is a lithium-ion rechargeable battery. The first 4 digits of the designation “18650” indicate the physical dimensions while the 5 <sup>th</sup> digit indicates it is a cylinder cell. The standard 18650 battery is 18mm around by 65mm long. (copied from curl because that page crashed the firefox tab, though I guess the superscript wouldn't have been preserved otherwise anyhow so might as well leave that bit of HTML in)
- killingtime74 4y ago
  It’s great, it’s almost a standard. Many different manufactures and the only commonality is usually the voltage. 18650 is so popular it’s used in some teslas, while newer ones use 21700
  - fragmede 4y ago
    I’ve also heard they’re going to use 4680 cells for their newer batteries.
  - picture 4y ago
    The voltage is determined by the chemistry, which unless you seriously deviate from the standard lithium stuff, it's going to be able 4.2 V max. Aside: When people try to increase it to like 4.3 V with "strengthened electrode material," the lifetime still seriously suffers. I'm typing this comment on a Razer Blade 15 with a currently swollen battery pack, which has been replaced only 10 months ago due to the same swelling issue
- adrian_b 4y ago
  A lot of batteries are designated in this way. E.g. a 2032 lithium battery for computer motherboards has a diameter of 20 mm (20-) and a height of 3.2 mm (-32). A thinner 2025 battery, used in various appliances, has a diameter of 20 mm and a height of 2.5 mm. There are many other such standard dimensions encoded in the battery numbers.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
> I have been a long time enthusiast of high power flashlights. We typically use 18350, 18650, 21700, or 26650. But I have been in dismay as even in this community, companies are starting to move away from these standards and provide proprietary batteries (Olight) or sealed (some newer Fenix models). We went through this exact cycle with laptops and cellular phones. The hardcore internet users were furious when companies dared to remove the option for a user-replaceable battery. But the market reacted positively. And honestly, it turned out fine. I could get replacement aftermarket batteries for my iPhone and MacBooks for a long time, and now I can even get genuine replacement parts when I need them. I see a lot of parallels in the flashlight world: The hardcore collectors who value their ability to swap out batteries, experiment with different cells, and carry their batteries from one light to the next are furious. Yet the average buyer probably prefers the features afforded by the custom battery solutions. The standardized-battery flashlights are still readily available. The market will avoid the proprietary solutions if that's really what the market feels, but I suspect these companies actually have a good idea about what their customers are looking for.
- pixl97 4y ago
  Cellphones are devices that cost hundreds of dollars and gave a store on every other streetcorner that can repair them. Doing this to flashlights is just creating e-waste. Your average company knows the average buyer is an idiot and will gladly burn the earth selling them junk. We had to heavily regulate the food industry to prevent bad actors from causing negative effects, looks like the same needs to happen with e-goods.
  - eru 4y ago
    > We had to heavily regulate the food industry to prevent bad actors from causing negative effects, [...] Sounds like 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' to me.
    - klodolph 4y ago
      What? Do you have some specific argument that you want to make against food industry regulations, or are you just trying to point out logical fallacies?
gwbas1c 4y ago
Regarding sealed: Does the light really outlast the battery? I have some LED lights that have lasted "forever," but my aquarium lights don't seem as durable and I think only will last 5-7 years. (Fluorescent bulbs only lasted a year, and each bulb cost almost as much as an LED version.)
- picture 4y ago
  I don't have any good references to cite but from my understanding, well designed LED systems only get dimmer over time (quite reasonably slowly) due to various semiconductor physics. However, by far the most common failure mode for electronics including LEDs is shock and fatigue to the interconnect. This means if you let your LED thermal cycle repeatedly, even to well below datasheet maximums, the solder and bonding are quite likely to fail. I'm not sure how your aquarium lights are configured (whether they cycled or were always on) but honestly 5-7 years is already quite impressive. There's not really any other lighting technology that can do that. 5-7 years of constant usage also far exceeds what consumer batteries can usually do, which are something on the order of hundreds of "actual cycles" before significant capacity degradation. That translates to maybe a couple years, but definitely less than five.
  - gwbas1c 4y ago
    > I'm not sure how your aquarium lights are configured ... but honestly 5-7 years is already quite impressive. I go through about 1 power brick a year. I got a wire wet in the original one, and I can't seem to find ones that last long. They always run hot. I just changed a relay yesterday. My smart switch doesn't output clean voltage or do clean off; so I have it drive a 120VAC relay. Could have been my wiring, though. It's an industrial relay, so I don't see why it'd fail after ~1500 cycles.
jack_pp 4y ago
Vape shops have li-ion batteries from known brands
- clumsysmurf 4y ago
  Perhaps, but some "known brands" like Vapcell just re-wrap something else (and they can change the underlying cell at any time, without you knowing where it actually came from). For example, the Vapcell G50 I purchased a year ago is actually ... a Sumsung SDI 50G. Whether that still holds today is unknown. Some people have had more recessed terminals, which would hint at Samsung 50E. Why do they do this? Because many high quality manufacturers (Samsung, LG) don't approve their cells for usage in vaping devices. Some like Molicel are OK with it. I'm sure you have heard of Mooch :)
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    > Why do they do this? Because many high quality manufacturers (Samsung, LG) don't approve their cells for usage in vaping devices Interesting. In France, there's a vape shop that advertises batteries as Samsung, Sony, etc. For instance: https://www.lepetitvapoteur.com/en/batteries/5185-samsung-30q-18650-3000mah-battery.html https://www.lepetitvapoteur.com/en/batteries/5185-samsung-30... Although, I do have a pair of these in front of me right now, bought a few years ago, and I can't find any mention of Samsung, or any other manufacturer, on them.
    - MichaelZuo 4y ago
      Seems like a shady vape shop then if they still advertise it.
      - vladvasiliu 4y ago
        I've found another vape shop advertising those [0]. I would have expected consumer protection to crack down on them for false advertising, since this is in France and these shops have been operating for at least two years. They also have physical locations, so it's not like they're some kind of "dark store" that moves every week... [0] https://www.lepetitfumeur.fr/accessoires-cigarette-electronique/accu-18650-inr-25r-samsung.html https://www.lepetitfumeur.fr/accessoires-cigarette-electroni... --- edit: Even Conrad, supposedly an old store, is selling these things. They're advertised as batteries for "industrial solutions". https://www.conrad.com/p/samsung-icr18650-26-non-standard-battery-rechargeable-18650-flat-top-li-ion-37-v-2550-mah-1436400 https://www.conrad.com/p/samsung-icr18650-26-non-standard-ba...
csomar 4y ago
I recently bought a Fenix and was disappointing the battery was not standard. In hindsight, I should have returned the model not to encourage these companies for these practices.

lucb1e 4y ago

Was wondering what these random numbers were, I expected a product number from a manufacturer. Instead: > An 18650 Battery is a lithium-ion rechargeable battery. The first 4 digits of the designation “18650” indicate the physical dimensions while the 5 <sup>th</sup> digit indicates it is a cylinder cell. The standard 18650 battery is 18mm around by 65mm long. (copied from curl because that page crashed the firefox tab, though I guess the superscript wouldn't have been preserved otherwise anyhow so might as well leave that bit of HTML in)

killingtime74 4y ago
It’s great, it’s almost a standard. Many different manufactures and the only commonality is usually the voltage. 18650 is so popular it’s used in some teslas, while newer ones use 21700
- fragmede 4y ago
  I’ve also heard they’re going to use 4680 cells for their newer batteries.
- picture 4y ago
  The voltage is determined by the chemistry, which unless you seriously deviate from the standard lithium stuff, it's going to be able 4.2 V max. Aside: When people try to increase it to like 4.3 V with "strengthened electrode material," the lifetime still seriously suffers. I'm typing this comment on a Razer Blade 15 with a currently swollen battery pack, which has been replaced only 10 months ago due to the same swelling issue
adrian_b 4y ago
A lot of batteries are designated in this way. E.g. a 2032 lithium battery for computer motherboards has a diameter of 20 mm (20-) and a height of 3.2 mm (-32). A thinner 2025 battery, used in various appliances, has a diameter of 20 mm and a height of 2.5 mm. There are many other such standard dimensions encoded in the battery numbers.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

> I have been a long time enthusiast of high power flashlights. We typically use 18350, 18650, 21700, or 26650. But I have been in dismay as even in this community, companies are starting to move away from these standards and provide proprietary batteries (Olight) or sealed (some newer Fenix models). We went through this exact cycle with laptops and cellular phones. The hardcore internet users were furious when companies dared to remove the option for a user-replaceable battery. But the market reacted positively. And honestly, it turned out fine. I could get replacement aftermarket batteries for my iPhone and MacBooks for a long time, and now I can even get genuine replacement parts when I need them. I see a lot of parallels in the flashlight world: The hardcore collectors who value their ability to swap out batteries, experiment with different cells, and carry their batteries from one light to the next are furious. Yet the average buyer probably prefers the features afforded by the custom battery solutions. The standardized-battery flashlights are still readily available. The market will avoid the proprietary solutions if that's really what the market feels, but I suspect these companies actually have a good idea about what their customers are looking for.

pixl97 4y ago
Cellphones are devices that cost hundreds of dollars and gave a store on every other streetcorner that can repair them. Doing this to flashlights is just creating e-waste. Your average company knows the average buyer is an idiot and will gladly burn the earth selling them junk. We had to heavily regulate the food industry to prevent bad actors from causing negative effects, looks like the same needs to happen with e-goods.
- eru 4y ago
  > We had to heavily regulate the food industry to prevent bad actors from causing negative effects, [...] Sounds like 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' to me.
  - klodolph 4y ago
    What? Do you have some specific argument that you want to make against food industry regulations, or are you just trying to point out logical fallacies?

gwbas1c 4y ago

Regarding sealed: Does the light really outlast the battery? I have some LED lights that have lasted "forever," but my aquarium lights don't seem as durable and I think only will last 5-7 years. (Fluorescent bulbs only lasted a year, and each bulb cost almost as much as an LED version.)

picture 4y ago
I don't have any good references to cite but from my understanding, well designed LED systems only get dimmer over time (quite reasonably slowly) due to various semiconductor physics. However, by far the most common failure mode for electronics including LEDs is shock and fatigue to the interconnect. This means if you let your LED thermal cycle repeatedly, even to well below datasheet maximums, the solder and bonding are quite likely to fail. I'm not sure how your aquarium lights are configured (whether they cycled or were always on) but honestly 5-7 years is already quite impressive. There's not really any other lighting technology that can do that. 5-7 years of constant usage also far exceeds what consumer batteries can usually do, which are something on the order of hundreds of "actual cycles" before significant capacity degradation. That translates to maybe a couple years, but definitely less than five.
- gwbas1c 4y ago
  > I'm not sure how your aquarium lights are configured ... but honestly 5-7 years is already quite impressive. I go through about 1 power brick a year. I got a wire wet in the original one, and I can't seem to find ones that last long. They always run hot. I just changed a relay yesterday. My smart switch doesn't output clean voltage or do clean off; so I have it drive a 120VAC relay. Could have been my wiring, though. It's an industrial relay, so I don't see why it'd fail after ~1500 cycles.

jack_pp 4y ago

Vape shops have li-ion batteries from known brands

clumsysmurf 4y ago
Perhaps, but some "known brands" like Vapcell just re-wrap something else (and they can change the underlying cell at any time, without you knowing where it actually came from). For example, the Vapcell G50 I purchased a year ago is actually ... a Sumsung SDI 50G. Whether that still holds today is unknown. Some people have had more recessed terminals, which would hint at Samsung 50E. Why do they do this? Because many high quality manufacturers (Samsung, LG) don't approve their cells for usage in vaping devices. Some like Molicel are OK with it. I'm sure you have heard of Mooch :)
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  > Why do they do this? Because many high quality manufacturers (Samsung, LG) don't approve their cells for usage in vaping devices Interesting. In France, there's a vape shop that advertises batteries as Samsung, Sony, etc. For instance: https://www.lepetitvapoteur.com/en/batteries/5185-samsung-30q-18650-3000mah-battery.html https://www.lepetitvapoteur.com/en/batteries/5185-samsung-30... Although, I do have a pair of these in front of me right now, bought a few years ago, and I can't find any mention of Samsung, or any other manufacturer, on them.
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    Seems like a shady vape shop then if they still advertise it.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      I've found another vape shop advertising those [0]. I would have expected consumer protection to crack down on them for false advertising, since this is in France and these shops have been operating for at least two years. They also have physical locations, so it's not like they're some kind of "dark store" that moves every week... [0] https://www.lepetitfumeur.fr/accessoires-cigarette-electronique/accu-18650-inr-25r-samsung.html https://www.lepetitfumeur.fr/accessoires-cigarette-electroni... --- edit: Even Conrad, supposedly an old store, is selling these things. They're advertised as batteries for "industrial solutions". https://www.conrad.com/p/samsung-icr18650-26-non-standard-battery-rechargeable-18650-flat-top-li-ion-37-v-2550-mah-1436400 https://www.conrad.com/p/samsung-icr18650-26-non-standard-ba...

csomar 4y ago

I recently bought a Fenix and was disappointing the battery was not standard. In hindsight, I should have returned the model not to encourage these companies for these practices.