5 ms·

So you're comparing Christianity (and by extension of similar standards and ways of living also Judaism and Muslims) to trans-gender ideologies?

vkou 4y ago
I'm noting, quite correctly, that the overwhelming amount of opposition to LGBTQ life in the US comes from modern Christian doctrine. As of 2022, there aren't a lot of secular thinkers/thought leaders/morality preachers in our culture who are telling people to stop being gay/trans, or equating being LGBQT with being a groomer or a child predator. So, yes, having a few books on LGBQT life (both religious and secular), and a few hundred books on Christian life (some of which happily and loudly condemn the former) in your library is a pretty good proxy for covering a wide range of viewpoints on the question of whether or not it's OK to be gay. But if you do want to thoroughly all-sides this question, there's also nothing that stops you from throwing in some secular, or Islamic, or Hindi anti-lgbqt literature onto the shelves. I'm sure it exists, but it's not a major axis of thought in this country, at the moment.
- hereme888 4y ago
  Christians happen to be the most vocal because this country has a very large population of such, and was founded by such as well. I mean, the rights of individuals in the US is legally guaranteed because of belief in God, and the nation still stands under God. 74 million people voted in 2020 for a loudly Christian president and vice president. From that pool, a large percentage would have defunded the library as well. But not all were Christians. So the library probably represents a similar demographic, and why not provide towards a demographic, which likely included the Muslims, Jews, Hindus, secular conservatives, etc. I disagree the major axis of thought in this country is pro-LGBQT by number of people, but would totally agree it's the presiding trend in most of the media, and maybe more than half of politicians, thereby seemingly being the major axis of thought. As for secular morality preachers, I didn't know they exist. I wonder how they deal with moral standards if they're not set in stone, as they're believed to be in the Bible. Tomorrow killing Jews might become the moral thing to do. Who's to say otherwise? The Nazis thought it was moral.
  - vkou 4y ago
    > I mean, the rights of individuals in the US is legally guaranteed because of belief in God, and the nation still stands under God. This country was founded on the principle of separation of church and state. It's not a Christian country. It's a country that happens to have Christians living in it. > 74 million people voted in 2020 for a loudly Christian president and vice president. Actually, 155 million people voted for a Christian president and VP. It's just that the Christian that got 81 million votes has a largely opposite take on this question. > As for secular morality preachers, I didn't know they exist. Literally anyone who gives moral advice without couching it in religion would qualify. Secular humanism enjoys some popularity. > I wonder how they deal with moral standards if they're not set in stone, as they're believed to be in the Bible. I don't think you have a good grasp on morality. Or on religion. Nothing about the interpretation of the Bible is set in stone. It is interpreted this way and that to suit the the zeitgeist, or the personal interests of the chap behind the pulpit (or his friends). Twenty different people look at it, and come up with completely contradictory conclusions about completely basic, fundamental things. And the vision that wins out is often the one with more guns and spearpoints and dollars behind it. > Tomorrow killing Jews might become the moral thing to do. Tomorrow? Why not look at yesterday? Christian persecution of Jews is a millenia-old on-and-off tradition, which is a little difficult to reconcile with the so-called involatile morality. As would the heavily-Christian South, that only a century and a half ago fought a civil war with the heavily-Christian North over the right to enslave black people. When the exact same founding documents produce such radically different conclusions, I think it's pretty clear that religious morality is about as involatile and set in stone as quicksand.
    - hereme888 4y ago
      >This country was founded on the principle of separation of church and state. It's not a Christian country. It's a country that happens to have Christians living in it. I never made the claim it was a Christian country. Yes there is separation of Church and State, but it was founded on Christian principles, and it is a fact our individual rights are legally guaranteed because by belief in God, not government or people. >On secular morality preachers. It's just news to me they exist. I have nothing against that. >I don't think you have a good grasp on morality. Or on religion. Nothing about the interpretation of the Bible is set in stone. Etc. I totally disagree. The Bible may have many stories, and some concepts may be difficult or "mysterious" to grasp, but there is nothing ambiguous about the actual commandments, and no room for interpretation. That's like saying it's ok for a State Attorney or judge to not disagree with certain laws but not others because they see things differently. They end up getting reprimanded, suspended, or their license revoked. Try telling a cop you have a different interpretation for speeding laws. >Re: persecution of Jews and enslavement of Blacks. The civil war was fought precisely because the declaration of independence states things like "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." And the South, driven by greed (not Christian beliefs), were unwilling to see a particular race as equal. Calling yourself a Christian doesn't mean you are a Christian, practicing it's teachings. It's like an American saying they don't believe in the Constitution or its laws; they're American in name only. I don't think you've ever read the Christian portion of the Bible. You will only find God condemning people who treat others that way. There is literally no room for a different conclusion. Re: Jewish persecution: Nazis made it legal to severely mistreat Jews. When rights and ethics aren't set in stone, moral standards can be bent that much.

vkou 4y ago

I'm noting, quite correctly, that the overwhelming amount of opposition to LGBTQ life in the US comes from modern Christian doctrine. As of 2022, there aren't a lot of secular thinkers/thought leaders/morality preachers in our culture who are telling people to stop being gay/trans, or equating being LGBQT with being a groomer or a child predator. So, yes, having a few books on LGBQT life (both religious and secular), and a few hundred books on Christian life (some of which happily and loudly condemn the former) in your library is a pretty good proxy for covering a wide range of viewpoints on the question of whether or not it's OK to be gay. But if you do want to thoroughly all-sides this question, there's also nothing that stops you from throwing in some secular, or Islamic, or Hindi anti-lgbqt literature onto the shelves. I'm sure it exists, but it's not a major axis of thought in this country, at the moment.

hereme888 4y ago
Christians happen to be the most vocal because this country has a very large population of such, and was founded by such as well. I mean, the rights of individuals in the US is legally guaranteed because of belief in God, and the nation still stands under God. 74 million people voted in 2020 for a loudly Christian president and vice president. From that pool, a large percentage would have defunded the library as well. But not all were Christians. So the library probably represents a similar demographic, and why not provide towards a demographic, which likely included the Muslims, Jews, Hindus, secular conservatives, etc. I disagree the major axis of thought in this country is pro-LGBQT by number of people, but would totally agree it's the presiding trend in most of the media, and maybe more than half of politicians, thereby seemingly being the major axis of thought. As for secular morality preachers, I didn't know they exist. I wonder how they deal with moral standards if they're not set in stone, as they're believed to be in the Bible. Tomorrow killing Jews might become the moral thing to do. Who's to say otherwise? The Nazis thought it was moral.
- vkou 4y ago
  > I mean, the rights of individuals in the US is legally guaranteed because of belief in God, and the nation still stands under God. This country was founded on the principle of separation of church and state. It's not a Christian country. It's a country that happens to have Christians living in it. > 74 million people voted in 2020 for a loudly Christian president and vice president. Actually, 155 million people voted for a Christian president and VP. It's just that the Christian that got 81 million votes has a largely opposite take on this question. > As for secular morality preachers, I didn't know they exist. Literally anyone who gives moral advice without couching it in religion would qualify. Secular humanism enjoys some popularity. > I wonder how they deal with moral standards if they're not set in stone, as they're believed to be in the Bible. I don't think you have a good grasp on morality. Or on religion. Nothing about the interpretation of the Bible is set in stone. It is interpreted this way and that to suit the the zeitgeist, or the personal interests of the chap behind the pulpit (or his friends). Twenty different people look at it, and come up with completely contradictory conclusions about completely basic, fundamental things. And the vision that wins out is often the one with more guns and spearpoints and dollars behind it. > Tomorrow killing Jews might become the moral thing to do. Tomorrow? Why not look at yesterday? Christian persecution of Jews is a millenia-old on-and-off tradition, which is a little difficult to reconcile with the so-called involatile morality. As would the heavily-Christian South, that only a century and a half ago fought a civil war with the heavily-Christian North over the right to enslave black people. When the exact same founding documents produce such radically different conclusions, I think it's pretty clear that religious morality is about as involatile and set in stone as quicksand.
  - hereme888 4y ago
    >This country was founded on the principle of separation of church and state. It's not a Christian country. It's a country that happens to have Christians living in it. I never made the claim it was a Christian country. Yes there is separation of Church and State, but it was founded on Christian principles, and it is a fact our individual rights are legally guaranteed because by belief in God, not government or people. >On secular morality preachers. It's just news to me they exist. I have nothing against that. >I don't think you have a good grasp on morality. Or on religion. Nothing about the interpretation of the Bible is set in stone. Etc. I totally disagree. The Bible may have many stories, and some concepts may be difficult or "mysterious" to grasp, but there is nothing ambiguous about the actual commandments, and no room for interpretation. That's like saying it's ok for a State Attorney or judge to not disagree with certain laws but not others because they see things differently. They end up getting reprimanded, suspended, or their license revoked. Try telling a cop you have a different interpretation for speeding laws. >Re: persecution of Jews and enslavement of Blacks. The civil war was fought precisely because the declaration of independence states things like "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." And the South, driven by greed (not Christian beliefs), were unwilling to see a particular race as equal. Calling yourself a Christian doesn't mean you are a Christian, practicing it's teachings. It's like an American saying they don't believe in the Constitution or its laws; they're American in name only. I don't think you've ever read the Christian portion of the Bible. You will only find God condemning people who treat others that way. There is literally no room for a different conclusion. Re: Jewish persecution: Nazis made it legal to severely mistreat Jews. When rights and ethics aren't set in stone, moral standards can be bent that much.