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> Already installed solar obviously has zero dependency on China > Over half of Frances’s Nuclear powerplants are currently offline for deferred maintenance T

> Already installed solar obviously has zero dependency on China > Over half of Frances’s Nuclear powerplants are currently offline for deferred maintenance There is more. Nuclear power requires continual availability of skilled technicians and engineers, replacement parts that need advanced manufacturing, water and other material, access to road and infrastructure. And a stable socioeconomical and political and legal system. And military defense. For some developed countries it can already difficult to provide all these things with 100% reliability. Today, before the bigger impact of climate change. And what about the remaining 50% of human population? Do you see South American, African and middle-eastern countries being able to run nuclear plants? And they do, what about plutonium and nuclear proliferation?

inglor_cz 4y ago
If Bulgaria and Ukraine can run their nuclear plants, why not Brazil or Argentina?
- Retric 4y ago
  Ukraine has a poor history of running nuclear power plants. They recently had one suffer a large scale military attack and are of course managing the aftermath of Chernobyl.
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    The Chernobyl explosion happened during Soviet times, 6 years before Ukrainian independence. So I wouldn't blame Ukraine as such for it. The fact that an aggressor chose Ukrainian nuclear plant as a target and impromptu military dump isn't Ukrainian fault either. This could have happened to Finland or Sweden, too, in case of a Soviet/Russian attack. (Neither country was under NATO's protective umbrella.)
    - Retric 4y ago
      Actually attacking it is on Russia. However, placing troups inside the nuclear power station is on Ukraine. It’s for similar reasons that you don't station troups inside a school, which apparently Ruissa has been doing.
  - pdabbadabba 4y ago
    Sure, there have been these two incidents. But whats the real argument here? Do these indicents mean that Ukraine has an intolerably poor track record? I don’t see how it does—especially since one occurred when Ukraine was part of the USSR, which was actually the nation operating the plant, and the other was caused by a neighbor’s aggression. And the actual point here was about Latin America. Ukraine was just an example. Is it really so implausible to think that, for example, Brazil and Argentina could not safely operate nuclear plants?
    - Retric 4y ago
      The point is if you want to consider how successful a major infrastructure project then you should base things on similar countries. Brazil has multiple nuclear reactors though South America has very few. If the history of nuclear incidents should tell us anything it’s the importantance of understanding failure modes. To use a Brazil example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goiânia_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goiânia_accident Massive complex infrastructure projects in poor countries often fail to finish or suffer from substandard construction etc.
  - belorn 4y ago
    The sad part is that the power grid is exceptional vulnerable to military operations and the single most vulnerable source that caused the loss of more lives than any other energy source during war is hydro power. A single hydroelectric dam has the potential energy of multiple nuclear bombs just waiting for a single fuse to go off, and as demonstrated during the second world war, even a mostly failed attempt to set it off can cause a massive amount of death and destruction. Attacking hydroelectric dams during war is a major war crime for a big and deadly reason.
    - Retric 4y ago
      If WWII is anything to go by, Dams are a surprisingly difficult target. Operation Chastise cost 53 RAF killed, 3 captured, and the loss of 8 aircraft. Net result 2 hydroelectric dams destroyed, several damaged, and ~1,600 civilian casualties. And it was only that successful do to high water levels at the dams in question.
      - belorn 4y ago
        The difficulty back then was mostly caused by the technology of the day when targeting was done by hand and sight, and where the pilot flew the plane by looking out from a window and using eye sight and memory to figure out where they were. Those technical issues of bomber planes are long gone, but the vulnerability of damns are just as they were 80 years ago. A bunker buster would go through the concrete as a knife through butter, and the targeting would be done with laser precision. The navigation and execution would today be done by computers. A cruise missile and a lancaster has very little in shared technology, and depending on definition isn't even in the same category. The construction of a 1940 hydroelectric damn and a hydroelectric damn in 2022 is basically indistinguishable. Concrete holding up water is concrete holding up water.
        Retric 4y ago
        The technical issues are still significant because you need to detonate underwater next to the dam making current smart bombs useless. Individual, Bunker busters fail because the hole is too small, it’s easy to patch and doesn't let enough water out to be destructive. Multiple bunker busters used together can work, but it’s still challenging. If look at the actual dams from WWII you notice they all got damaged about half way up and only blew out a section of the dam. This is because thickness increases dramatically with depth and bombs only have so much energy. They needed the pressure of a dam at near maximum capacity to work, which is why several other dams services just fine.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  Because if they do some other country up north might get skittish and stage a coup or a little war.
MichaelCollins 4y ago
> And what about the remaining 50% of human population? Do you see South American, African and middle-eastern countries being able to run nuclear plants? This is hard to read charitably. It seems like a racist remark, not least because there are nuclear power plants in South America, Africa, and the Middle East. Maybe you aren't racist yourself, but you presume nuclear power proponents to be racist? The ends justify the means, so you can play into the racial biases of those you oppose? I don't like this.
- Retric 4y ago
  Suggetsing countries like Afghanistan that have had difficulty maintaining basic infrastructure would have more difficulty safely maintaining more difficult infrastructure like nuclear power plants seems reasonable. There is nothing racist about suggesting South Africa which is the only Africa country with nuclear power might have better odds than Sudan. Similarly Brazil has safely operated nuclear power plants for decades, but nuclear has faced real logistical issues in South America.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  > seems like a racist remark It is the very opposite. I'm stating that the global south is being exploited and denied access to technology (and more). If anything, it is racist to NOT acknowledge the problems that the global south is facing. Besides, I clearly wrote "countries" obviously referring to the political entities, not the population. > Maybe you aren't racist yourself, but you presume nuclear power proponents to be racist? Now you flipped 180? > The ends justify the means, so you can play into the racial biases of those you oppose? What does this even mean?
cesarb 4y ago
> Do you see South American, African and middle-eastern countries being able to run nuclear plants? South American here. We do have a couple of nuclear plants, and they run fine.

inglor_cz 4y ago

If Bulgaria and Ukraine can run their nuclear plants, why not Brazil or Argentina?

Retric 4y ago
Ukraine has a poor history of running nuclear power plants. They recently had one suffer a large scale military attack and are of course managing the aftermath of Chernobyl.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  The Chernobyl explosion happened during Soviet times, 6 years before Ukrainian independence. So I wouldn't blame Ukraine as such for it. The fact that an aggressor chose Ukrainian nuclear plant as a target and impromptu military dump isn't Ukrainian fault either. This could have happened to Finland or Sweden, too, in case of a Soviet/Russian attack. (Neither country was under NATO's protective umbrella.)
  - Retric 4y ago
    Actually attacking it is on Russia. However, placing troups inside the nuclear power station is on Ukraine. It’s for similar reasons that you don't station troups inside a school, which apparently Ruissa has been doing.
- pdabbadabba 4y ago
  Sure, there have been these two incidents. But whats the real argument here? Do these indicents mean that Ukraine has an intolerably poor track record? I don’t see how it does—especially since one occurred when Ukraine was part of the USSR, which was actually the nation operating the plant, and the other was caused by a neighbor’s aggression. And the actual point here was about Latin America. Ukraine was just an example. Is it really so implausible to think that, for example, Brazil and Argentina could not safely operate nuclear plants?
  - Retric 4y ago
    The point is if you want to consider how successful a major infrastructure project then you should base things on similar countries. Brazil has multiple nuclear reactors though South America has very few. If the history of nuclear incidents should tell us anything it’s the importantance of understanding failure modes. To use a Brazil example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goiânia_accident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goiânia_accident Massive complex infrastructure projects in poor countries often fail to finish or suffer from substandard construction etc.
- belorn 4y ago
  The sad part is that the power grid is exceptional vulnerable to military operations and the single most vulnerable source that caused the loss of more lives than any other energy source during war is hydro power. A single hydroelectric dam has the potential energy of multiple nuclear bombs just waiting for a single fuse to go off, and as demonstrated during the second world war, even a mostly failed attempt to set it off can cause a massive amount of death and destruction. Attacking hydroelectric dams during war is a major war crime for a big and deadly reason.
  - Retric 4y ago
    If WWII is anything to go by, Dams are a surprisingly difficult target. Operation Chastise cost 53 RAF killed, 3 captured, and the loss of 8 aircraft. Net result 2 hydroelectric dams destroyed, several damaged, and ~1,600 civilian casualties. And it was only that successful do to high water levels at the dams in question.
    - belorn 4y ago
      The difficulty back then was mostly caused by the technology of the day when targeting was done by hand and sight, and where the pilot flew the plane by looking out from a window and using eye sight and memory to figure out where they were. Those technical issues of bomber planes are long gone, but the vulnerability of damns are just as they were 80 years ago. A bunker buster would go through the concrete as a knife through butter, and the targeting would be done with laser precision. The navigation and execution would today be done by computers. A cruise missile and a lancaster has very little in shared technology, and depending on definition isn't even in the same category. The construction of a 1940 hydroelectric damn and a hydroelectric damn in 2022 is basically indistinguishable. Concrete holding up water is concrete holding up water.
      - Retric 4y ago
        The technical issues are still significant because you need to detonate underwater next to the dam making current smart bombs useless. Individual, Bunker busters fail because the hole is too small, it’s easy to patch and doesn't let enough water out to be destructive. Multiple bunker busters used together can work, but it’s still challenging. If look at the actual dams from WWII you notice they all got damaged about half way up and only blew out a section of the dam. This is because thickness increases dramatically with depth and bombs only have so much energy. They needed the pressure of a dam at near maximum capacity to work, which is why several other dams services just fine.
goodpoint 4y ago
Because if they do some other country up north might get skittish and stage a coup or a little war.

MichaelCollins 4y ago

> And what about the remaining 50% of human population? Do you see South American, African and middle-eastern countries being able to run nuclear plants? This is hard to read charitably. It seems like a racist remark, not least because there are nuclear power plants in South America, Africa, and the Middle East. Maybe you aren't racist yourself, but you presume nuclear power proponents to be racist? The ends justify the means, so you can play into the racial biases of those you oppose? I don't like this.

Retric 4y ago
Suggetsing countries like Afghanistan that have had difficulty maintaining basic infrastructure would have more difficulty safely maintaining more difficult infrastructure like nuclear power plants seems reasonable. There is nothing racist about suggesting South Africa which is the only Africa country with nuclear power might have better odds than Sudan. Similarly Brazil has safely operated nuclear power plants for decades, but nuclear has faced real logistical issues in South America.
goodpoint 4y ago
> seems like a racist remark It is the very opposite. I'm stating that the global south is being exploited and denied access to technology (and more). If anything, it is racist to NOT acknowledge the problems that the global south is facing. Besides, I clearly wrote "countries" obviously referring to the political entities, not the population. > Maybe you aren't racist yourself, but you presume nuclear power proponents to be racist? Now you flipped 180? > The ends justify the means, so you can play into the racial biases of those you oppose? What does this even mean?

cesarb 4y ago

> Do you see South American, African and middle-eastern countries being able to run nuclear plants? South American here. We do have a couple of nuclear plants, and they run fine.