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> certainly has the numbers on his side That statistic presents a somewhat circular logic, with drug abuse (mainly alcohol) and mood disorders (depression: uni

by noibl 15y ago

> certainly has the numbers on his side That statistic presents a somewhat circular logic, with drug abuse (mainly alcohol) and mood disorders (depression: uni-/bi-polar) making up the bulk of the 'mental disorders' figure (FTA). Since feelings of worthlessness and suicidal thoughts are used to diagnose depressive disorders in the first place and since drug abuse is acknowledged to often be a form of self-medication for undiagnosed depression, blaming 'mental disorders' clearly begs the question in a large number of cases. The literature shows that environmental factors play a major role in causing and aggravating these illnesses and behaviours. I believe this is the point that VladRussian was making and it's not so easily dismissed with 'numbers'. Likewise, the very large proportion of suicides which come after a clinical diagnosis (and presumably some kind of treatment) doesn't inspire much faith in the 'just go and get yourself sorted out' line of advice. I find it disturbing that in a discussion on this topic, someone advocating being kinder to people in general, and perhaps certain people in particular, would be subjected to the kind of insults that Cushman has used.

skore 15y ago
I would say that both sides of the argument that VladRussian started have a point but equally lack civility: viggity simply linked to a suicide prevention site and VladRussian lashed out how somebody dare to ask for suicidal people to seek help when it's society at fault. Cushman took offense and implied that depression is the culprit here. Cue further misunderstanding about the wording of "imaginary". I think both sides are projecting their own view a little too hard on this. Environmental factors surely are a factor in this and I was 'quoting numbers' because VladRussian was a little to quick to dismiss mental illness. Again - since we all don't know the details in this particular case, this is an abstract discussion about suicide. In an abstract discussion, you either make a case and discuss it, or you discuss one that another person has made. VladRussian simply picked a fight and Cushman bought into it. Also, re: circular logic. I don't think it is circular - Suicidal thoughts may be a symptom of depression, but that's not the same as saying they are a cause of depression. I know you don't say that either, but that's what would make it circular. (Also: saying it's 'somewhat circular' is a cop-out - it either is, or isn't circular.) I further don't think mental disorders really are "blamed" for suicide, they are simply accepted as a very common pathway in medical studies.
- noibl 15y ago
  To say that a suicide was caused by depression and that we knew the person was depressed because they claimed to be suicidal is circular. I qualified the term because there are other components to that statistic which it would be wrong to discount. (I don't believe anyone in this subthread has done that.)
  - skore 15y ago
    No, that is simply not logical and nobody is arguing it. Again - a claim to have suicidal thoughts is a factor in diagnosing depression. Acting on those thoughts leads to actual suicide. That does not imply that suicidal thoughts were the reason why somebody became depressed. Here is what would be a perfectly circular argument: Somebody commits suicide. Society looks for a reason of that suicide. They figure out that the person was depressed. But why was he depressed? Turns out, he was suicidal. But that's not what is being argued: Somebody is depressed. So much depressed, that the person has suicidal thoughts. The person commits suicide. Society correctly assesses that his depression was the main cause in committing suicide. This is apparent, because it was in depression that suicidal thoughts appeared.

by noibl 15y ago

skore 15y ago

I would say that both sides of the argument that VladRussian started have a point but equally lack civility: viggity simply linked to a suicide prevention site and VladRussian lashed out how somebody dare to ask for suicidal people to seek help when it's society at fault. Cushman took offense and implied that depression is the culprit here. Cue further misunderstanding about the wording of "imaginary". I think both sides are projecting their own view a little too hard on this. Environmental factors surely are a factor in this and I was 'quoting numbers' because VladRussian was a little to quick to dismiss mental illness. Again - since we all don't know the details in this particular case, this is an abstract discussion about suicide. In an abstract discussion, you either make a case and discuss it, or you discuss one that another person has made. VladRussian simply picked a fight and Cushman bought into it. Also, re: circular logic. I don't think it is circular - Suicidal thoughts may be a symptom of depression, but that's not the same as saying they are a cause of depression. I know you don't say that either, but that's what would make it circular. (Also: saying it's 'somewhat circular' is a cop-out - it either is, or isn't circular.) I further don't think mental disorders really are "blamed" for suicide, they are simply accepted as a very common pathway in medical studies.

noibl 15y ago
To say that a suicide was caused by depression and that we knew the person was depressed because they claimed to be suicidal is circular. I qualified the term because there are other components to that statistic which it would be wrong to discount. (I don't believe anyone in this subthread has done that.)
- skore 15y ago
  No, that is simply not logical and nobody is arguing it. Again - a claim to have suicidal thoughts is a factor in diagnosing depression. Acting on those thoughts leads to actual suicide. That does not imply that suicidal thoughts were the reason why somebody became depressed. Here is what would be a perfectly circular argument: Somebody commits suicide. Society looks for a reason of that suicide. They figure out that the person was depressed. But why was he depressed? Turns out, he was suicidal. But that's not what is being argued: Somebody is depressed. So much depressed, that the person has suicidal thoughts. The person commits suicide. Society correctly assesses that his depression was the main cause in committing suicide. This is apparent, because it was in depression that suicidal thoughts appeared.