7 ms·

Finland to Become the First EU Country to Test Digital Passports

27 points by taubek 4y ago

varispeed 4y ago
- martimarkov 4y ago
  I guess when I read their website I don’t freak out. What exactly is the thing that worries you from their website?
  - pretext-1 4y ago
    Looks like OP fell into the "Great Reset" conspiracy theory rabbit hole. The article does not mention anything related to "social credit score" and replacing a hardware passport (which is already equipped with a chip) with a software version would not make a difference anyway.
    - nbzso 4y ago
      There is no conspiracy when everything is public information. This is an agenda. Check the links from my comment, especially about Italian "experiment". You can check Naomi Klein view on "the conspiracy". If you wish. "The Great Reset is an attempt to create a plausible impression that the huge winners in this system are on the verge of voluntarily setting greed aside to get serious about solving the raging crises that are radically destabilizing our world." https://theintercept.com/2020/12/08/great-reset-conspiracy/ https://theintercept.com/2020/12/08/great-reset-conspiracy/
- nbzso 4y ago
oittaa 4y ago
I really hope EU driver's licenses will follow soon. After that I could actually stop carrying a wallet. Cash usage basically stopped in Northern Europe years ago, but for some reason we still have to carry these few relics when driving or traveling.
- mdre 4y ago
  In Poland you don't need to carry one, I've been walletless for like a year now. It's a shame the driver's database is not EU-wide - that would be awesome.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    > It's a shame the driver's database is not EU-wide I'm pretty sure in France, the police won't be happy if they stop you, and you can't show your license and vehicle papers. Even though they are in a database, with the photograph for the license. And they also seem to know enough just by reading the plates to send you automated speeding tickets by snail mail.
- asdojasdosadsa 4y ago
  Pretty much my exact reaction to this article. There actually was a test period (ended 2020) testing a digital drivers license in Finland! (Finnish) https://www.puhelinvertailu.com/uutiset/2022/02/09/sahkoinen-ajokortti-mobiiliajokortti-kohtalo https://www.puhelinvertailu.com/uutiset/2022/02/09/sahkoinen...
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  When I travel abroad I leave my passport in a safe place as much as I can if I don't absolutely have to carry it with me, along with a payment card and some cash. If I lose my phone or wallet I still have my passport and a mean of payment. Now I foresee a future in which a cause of homelessness will be losing your phone.
  - worble 4y ago
    They just need to accept both. I can print off a digital plane ticket and keep one on my phone, if I lose one I always have the other. If I lose my physical passport though, I'm completely stuck. If I can have a physical and digital one though, there is at least some redundancy built in.
zlqry 4y ago
Another digital leash. It makes sense to put a passport on a mobile tracking device. We increasingly live in a world where no transaction between two individuals is possible without the approval of a third party. Citizens become digital subjects.
- prox 4y ago
  I believe it also changes the onus. With the passport I can simply proof That I am who I say I am. In a digital passport it suddenly my burden to prove it through the intervention of a server. “I am sorry, you are not in our database, you don’t exist.” That depends on how it’s implemented ofcourse, but still a third party remains a liability.
  - cjrp 4y ago
    What do you think they do with a passport at border control though? They scan it, and you get looked up in a DB.
    - sdoering 4y ago
      I often have to use the passport to prove who I say I am within my country. In case I collect a parcel at the post office for example. This with the person at the counter looking at the passport and not doing any scan of it. So the liability risk model with an added server increases massively.
      - kingofsevens 4y ago
        There is a black box model of verifying identity without revealing any information. Blockchain might come handy here but I agree on not relying on another server level.
        agubelu 4y ago
        I think I have a decent technical understanding of how blockchains work, but I still sometimes have trouble understanding how exactly they would work for some proposed applications like this one. Could you please ellaborate? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that the whole point of a blockchain is to update and maintain information in a distributed manner and in a trustless environment. In this case: - Could any person (who finds an appropriate nonce) update this blockchain with whatever information they want? - What information would be stored in it? - Doesn't it make more sense for this kind of data to be centralized rather than distributed? Unless the black box model you mentioned specifically needs a blockchain
ranguna 4y ago
Wut? I thought we had that in Portugal for years now
rahimnathwani 4y ago
The headline seemed weird to me, as you need at least two countries to test a new type of passport (the issuing country and the country accepting the passport for entry). Sure enough, the article says: "the initial plan is to test digital travel documents between Finland and Croatia"
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Croatia seems rather strange choice. It is not exactly the most popular travel destination. But then again most of those are in Schengen, and I don't think you can expect too much from UK and deals with Russia have some issues currently. So I don't think list is too big.
  - ageitgey 4y ago
    > Croatia seems rather strange choice. It is not exactly the most popular travel destination. Maybe you just aren't familiar with it, but Croatia is a very popular summer beach vacation destination for Europeans looking to hit the beach in the summer. The beaches are beautiful, they have old architecture in cities like Split and it's relatively inexpensive to visit. They get ~20 million tourists a year and tourism is about 20% of their GDP.
  - taubek 4y ago
    Yes, Croatia is not in Schengen yet. The decision on that should be made in autumn. This is the experiment so I guess that it is better to run it with countries that are not the tip destination. I've just looked up the numbers for 2019, 118 000 visitors came to Croatia from Finland (https://www.ceicdata.com/en/croatia/tourist-arrivals-by-country-annual/tourist-arrivals-foreign-european-finland https://www.ceicdata.com/en/croatia/tourist-arrivals-by-coun...).
nano9 4y ago
Besides having one thing fewer to carry on your person, I don't see the point. Aren't passports already cryptographic devices, containing your information for external lookup and verification? Why move that to the phone? If anything that decreases security, and it's not like your need your passport available commonly enough like a bus pass to warrant moving to the phone. Passports with a chip offer fantastic security in a discrete package, and if the future is to move this to the phone then I will be a bit disappointed.

27 points by taubek 4y ago

martimarkov 4y ago
I guess when I read their website I don’t freak out. What exactly is the thing that worries you from their website?
- pretext-1 4y ago
  Looks like OP fell into the "Great Reset" conspiracy theory rabbit hole. The article does not mention anything related to "social credit score" and replacing a hardware passport (which is already equipped with a chip) with a software version would not make a difference anyway.
  - nbzso 4y ago
    There is no conspiracy when everything is public information. This is an agenda. Check the links from my comment, especially about Italian "experiment". You can check Naomi Klein view on "the conspiracy". If you wish. "The Great Reset is an attempt to create a plausible impression that the huge winners in this system are on the verge of voluntarily setting greed aside to get serious about solving the raging crises that are radically destabilizing our world." https://theintercept.com/2020/12/08/great-reset-conspiracy/ https://theintercept.com/2020/12/08/great-reset-conspiracy/
nbzso 4y ago

I really hope EU driver's licenses will follow soon. After that I could actually stop carrying a wallet. Cash usage basically stopped in Northern Europe years ago, but for some reason we still have to carry these few relics when driving or traveling.

mdre 4y ago
In Poland you don't need to carry one, I've been walletless for like a year now. It's a shame the driver's database is not EU-wide - that would be awesome.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  > It's a shame the driver's database is not EU-wide I'm pretty sure in France, the police won't be happy if they stop you, and you can't show your license and vehicle papers. Even though they are in a database, with the photograph for the license. And they also seem to know enough just by reading the plates to send you automated speeding tickets by snail mail.
asdojasdosadsa 4y ago
Pretty much my exact reaction to this article. There actually was a test period (ended 2020) testing a digital drivers license in Finland! (Finnish) https://www.puhelinvertailu.com/uutiset/2022/02/09/sahkoinen-ajokortti-mobiiliajokortti-kohtalo https://www.puhelinvertailu.com/uutiset/2022/02/09/sahkoinen...
mytailorisrich 4y ago
When I travel abroad I leave my passport in a safe place as much as I can if I don't absolutely have to carry it with me, along with a payment card and some cash. If I lose my phone or wallet I still have my passport and a mean of payment. Now I foresee a future in which a cause of homelessness will be losing your phone.
- worble 4y ago
  They just need to accept both. I can print off a digital plane ticket and keep one on my phone, if I lose one I always have the other. If I lose my physical passport though, I'm completely stuck. If I can have a physical and digital one though, there is at least some redundancy built in.

zlqry 4y ago

Another digital leash. It makes sense to put a passport on a mobile tracking device. We increasingly live in a world where no transaction between two individuals is possible without the approval of a third party. Citizens become digital subjects.

prox 4y ago
I believe it also changes the onus. With the passport I can simply proof That I am who I say I am. In a digital passport it suddenly my burden to prove it through the intervention of a server. “I am sorry, you are not in our database, you don’t exist.” That depends on how it’s implemented ofcourse, but still a third party remains a liability.
- cjrp 4y ago
  What do you think they do with a passport at border control though? They scan it, and you get looked up in a DB.
  - sdoering 4y ago
    I often have to use the passport to prove who I say I am within my country. In case I collect a parcel at the post office for example. This with the person at the counter looking at the passport and not doing any scan of it. So the liability risk model with an added server increases massively.
    - kingofsevens 4y ago
      There is a black box model of verifying identity without revealing any information. Blockchain might come handy here but I agree on not relying on another server level.
      - agubelu 4y ago
        I think I have a decent technical understanding of how blockchains work, but I still sometimes have trouble understanding how exactly they would work for some proposed applications like this one. Could you please ellaborate? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that the whole point of a blockchain is to update and maintain information in a distributed manner and in a trustless environment. In this case: - Could any person (who finds an appropriate nonce) update this blockchain with whatever information they want? - What information would be stored in it? - Doesn't it make more sense for this kind of data to be centralized rather than distributed? Unless the black box model you mentioned specifically needs a blockchain

ranguna 4y ago

Wut? I thought we had that in Portugal for years now

rahimnathwani 4y ago

The headline seemed weird to me, as you need at least two countries to test a new type of passport (the issuing country and the country accepting the passport for entry). Sure enough, the article says: "the initial plan is to test digital travel documents between Finland and Croatia"

Ekaros 4y ago
Croatia seems rather strange choice. It is not exactly the most popular travel destination. But then again most of those are in Schengen, and I don't think you can expect too much from UK and deals with Russia have some issues currently. So I don't think list is too big.
- ageitgey 4y ago
  > Croatia seems rather strange choice. It is not exactly the most popular travel destination. Maybe you just aren't familiar with it, but Croatia is a very popular summer beach vacation destination for Europeans looking to hit the beach in the summer. The beaches are beautiful, they have old architecture in cities like Split and it's relatively inexpensive to visit. They get ~20 million tourists a year and tourism is about 20% of their GDP.
- taubek 4y ago
  Yes, Croatia is not in Schengen yet. The decision on that should be made in autumn. This is the experiment so I guess that it is better to run it with countries that are not the tip destination. I've just looked up the numbers for 2019, 118 000 visitors came to Croatia from Finland (https://www.ceicdata.com/en/croatia/tourist-arrivals-by-country-annual/tourist-arrivals-foreign-european-finland https://www.ceicdata.com/en/croatia/tourist-arrivals-by-coun...).

nano9 4y ago

Besides having one thing fewer to carry on your person, I don't see the point. Aren't passports already cryptographic devices, containing your information for external lookup and verification? Why move that to the phone? If anything that decreases security, and it's not like your need your passport available commonly enough like a bus pass to warrant moving to the phone. Passports with a chip offer fantastic security in a discrete package, and if the future is to move this to the phone then I will be a bit disappointed.