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How about the boards of gun rights organizations? Militia members? Southern evangelical church leaders? Where’s political bipartisanship here? Could it be that

How about the boards of gun rights organizations? Militia members? Southern evangelical church leaders? Where’s political bipartisanship here? Could it be that different political affiliations are based on different value systems, where one side happens to value education and knowledge more than the other?

josephcsible 4y ago
None of the organizations you listed are funded by my tax dollars.
- nindalf 4y ago
  Sort of. Those evangelical churches are getting an implicit subsidy by not having to pay taxes. Why do they deserve such special treatment?
  - xyzzyz 4y ago
    Not having to pay a tax is not an "implicit subsidy". This is a completely absurd way of thinking. Taxes is not some sort of fundamental law of nature, and tax exemption are not government being helpful by using its own resources to help the entity out. It's more like a bully who tells you he won't steal your lunch today (but will tomorrow). It's a nice bully, though, who'll protect you from other school bullies, and he needs to eat too. Doesn't he deserve your lunch? Imagine a scenario where everyone is taxed, say, 10%. Then, the government introduces an extra tax of 10%, for a total of 20%, and then gives everyone a tax exemption, so that everyone pays 10% after all, just like before. Is the new tax exemption an "implicit subsidy"? Do people feel subsidized by not having to pay extra 10% on top of 10% they already pay? No, at best they are grateful that they are losing less money to a bully. Now, imagine we start from 0%, and again introduce a new tax of 10%, and a new exemption, so that nobody actually pays any tax after all. Again, in this no tax world, is the government "subsidizing" everyone? No, that's not what the word "subsidize" mean.
    - imustbeevil 4y ago
      That's not how taxes work. Churches owe taxes because they conduct business in the United States. The government pays those taxes instead. That's a subsidy.
      - josephcsible 4y ago
        If a bully extorts an entire class for lunch money, except for one kid who's on the wrestling team, the bully did not pay for the wrestler's lunch.
        imustbeevil 4y ago
        Yeah I'm talking about taxes in the United States, not continuing that strained analogy. I don't mean to be flippant, but engaging with a disconnected hypothetical takes away from the discussion of reality. In my original comment, I believe I sufficiently communicated that I disagree that taxes are extortion. In the context of funding libraries and churches, I don't think that disagreement is going to lead us anywhere.
        Brian_K_White 4y ago
        money is fungible, and so yes they did
      - xyzzyz 4y ago
        > Churches owe taxes because they conduct business in the United States. And you owe the bully your lunch, because you conduct your presence in his class. When the bully says he won’t take your lunch today, he is actually buying you your lunch. That’s a subsidy. If it sounds stupid, that’s because it is. Tax exemptions are not subsidies.
        imustbeevil 4y ago
        It sounds more like you disagree with taxation, rather than the semantics around subsidization. We can't really continue this line of dialogue if you disagree that taxes are payments for services rendered. It's like saying Burger King is stealing my lunch money when I buy a Whopper. It's a really bad analogy. Alternatively, here's a definition of subsidy: > A subsidy is a benefit given to an individual, business, or institution, usually by the government. It can be direct (such as cash payments) or indirect (such as tax breaks). https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/subsidy.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/subsidy.asp
- Defletter 4y ago
  Tax exemption can be considered a form of public funding. Churches are beginning to be stripped of their tax exemption exactly because of their political operations.
rayiner 4y ago
I think it’s more accurate to say that one side values theoretical education and academic knowledge more than another. The fact that certain mores and attitudes produced the prosperous America we enjoy today is also a kind of knowledge. But I think your point about differing value systems is exactly on point. The problem is, in theory your local libery association, or teacher’s union, etc., isn’t supposed to bear comparison to a gun rights organization or evangelical church. Like, I can imagine that folks in NYC would be unhappy if their local public library adopted the value system of an evangelical church or gun rights organization. Why is it surprising that the same reaction results when the shoe is on the other foot?

josephcsible 4y ago

None of the organizations you listed are funded by my tax dollars.

nindalf 4y ago
Sort of. Those evangelical churches are getting an implicit subsidy by not having to pay taxes. Why do they deserve such special treatment?
- xyzzyz 4y ago
  Not having to pay a tax is not an "implicit subsidy". This is a completely absurd way of thinking. Taxes is not some sort of fundamental law of nature, and tax exemption are not government being helpful by using its own resources to help the entity out. It's more like a bully who tells you he won't steal your lunch today (but will tomorrow). It's a nice bully, though, who'll protect you from other school bullies, and he needs to eat too. Doesn't he deserve your lunch? Imagine a scenario where everyone is taxed, say, 10%. Then, the government introduces an extra tax of 10%, for a total of 20%, and then gives everyone a tax exemption, so that everyone pays 10% after all, just like before. Is the new tax exemption an "implicit subsidy"? Do people feel subsidized by not having to pay extra 10% on top of 10% they already pay? No, at best they are grateful that they are losing less money to a bully. Now, imagine we start from 0%, and again introduce a new tax of 10%, and a new exemption, so that nobody actually pays any tax after all. Again, in this no tax world, is the government "subsidizing" everyone? No, that's not what the word "subsidize" mean.
  - imustbeevil 4y ago
    That's not how taxes work. Churches owe taxes because they conduct business in the United States. The government pays those taxes instead. That's a subsidy.
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      If a bully extorts an entire class for lunch money, except for one kid who's on the wrestling team, the bully did not pay for the wrestler's lunch.
      - imustbeevil 4y ago
        Yeah I'm talking about taxes in the United States, not continuing that strained analogy. I don't mean to be flippant, but engaging with a disconnected hypothetical takes away from the discussion of reality. In my original comment, I believe I sufficiently communicated that I disagree that taxes are extortion. In the context of funding libraries and churches, I don't think that disagreement is going to lead us anywhere.
      - Brian_K_White 4y ago
        money is fungible, and so yes they did
    - xyzzyz 4y ago
      > Churches owe taxes because they conduct business in the United States. And you owe the bully your lunch, because you conduct your presence in his class. When the bully says he won’t take your lunch today, he is actually buying you your lunch. That’s a subsidy. If it sounds stupid, that’s because it is. Tax exemptions are not subsidies.
      - imustbeevil 4y ago
        It sounds more like you disagree with taxation, rather than the semantics around subsidization. We can't really continue this line of dialogue if you disagree that taxes are payments for services rendered. It's like saying Burger King is stealing my lunch money when I buy a Whopper. It's a really bad analogy. Alternatively, here's a definition of subsidy: > A subsidy is a benefit given to an individual, business, or institution, usually by the government. It can be direct (such as cash payments) or indirect (such as tax breaks). https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/subsidy.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/subsidy.asp
Defletter 4y ago
Tax exemption can be considered a form of public funding. Churches are beginning to be stripped of their tax exemption exactly because of their political operations.

rayiner 4y ago

I think it’s more accurate to say that one side values theoretical education and academic knowledge more than another. The fact that certain mores and attitudes produced the prosperous America we enjoy today is also a kind of knowledge. But I think your point about differing value systems is exactly on point. The problem is, in theory your local libery association, or teacher’s union, etc., isn’t supposed to bear comparison to a gun rights organization or evangelical church. Like, I can imagine that folks in NYC would be unhappy if their local public library adopted the value system of an evangelical church or gun rights organization. Why is it surprising that the same reaction results when the shoe is on the other foot?