5 ms·

I think a big fraction of the anti-transgender movement is not against adults modifying their bodies, but against a) children modifying their bodies, b) persons

I think a big fraction of the anti-transgender movement is not against adults modifying their bodies, but against a) children modifying their bodies, b) persons with modified bodies claiming to be the opposite gender thanks to their modifications (or indeed, before any modification). They probably would have much less of a problem with an adult replacing one of their eyes with an x-ray camera or whatever.

lostgame 4y ago
I wish that were the case - but it’s a significantly smaller fraction than it needs to be. The largest fraction of the anti-transgender movement is clearly the American conservative Christian right, who has completely chosen to ignore human rights in favour of Old Testament values. (Source: I’m transgender, and I’m terrified what’s going on in the USA.)
- mkmk3 4y ago
  The fraction of people who want to prevent children transitioning or claiming youre a different gender, versus people against general body mods, is smaller than it needs to be? That might be a really good point if true.
  - Elinvynia 4y ago
    Transitioning for small children is literally just wearing different clothing. When they get a bit older, at most they can extremely rarely (due to people pushing against it, even though it reduces suicide rates and saves lives!) get puberty blockers. Those can then be stopped with minimal consequences if they decide that's not something they wanna do. What is actually cruel is FORCING kids to undergo their AGAB puberty against their will. We know they are safe, we know they save lives. The vast majority of uses for puberty blockers are still cis children that have early puberty.
    - mkmk3 4y ago
      Idk what the effect of taking blockers for 3 years and then realizing its a mistake would be. Do you experience puberty for the same duration, to the same extent? If youre male, are you going to be shorter for instance? Regarding clothing, maybe its just wrong to emphasize gender in the first place? I think a lot of people are cool with kids doing whatever, its just weird when the people around them start really reaffirming the decisions made by someone we dont trust to have autonomy in most things. Maybe transgendered people have some biological or psychological drive thats distinct and not related to the people around them, but if I were around this rhetoric as a kid I can very easily see how it could have wrecked me, considering how I dealt with the subject of gender from pre to late teens. Maybe itd be a worthy price, Im skeptical but trying to make sense of it
      - kuschku 4y ago
        > Idk what the effect of taking blockers for 3 years and then realizing its a mistake would be. Do you experience puberty for the same duration, to the same extent? If youre male, are you going to be shorter for instance? There's no negative effects, as long as you only delay it for a few years (e.g. 10-13) and not too long (you should have entered some puberty around 16, or things get complicated). As soon as you'll stop, your natural puberty starts, with the same duration and effects it'd have normally. Puberty blockers are actually an off-label use when used for trans people. Puberty blockers are originally used for cis kids who enter puberty too early, and this use is far far more common than the use for trans kids. So if they're safe to use on cis kids to delay transition, they're definitely safe for the trans usage as well.
    - fastball 4y ago
      > undergo their AGAB puberty against their will It's also weird mental gymnastics like this that people are pushing against. For anyone who is not familiar with the acronym, AGAB means "Assigned Gender At Birth", and is push back against the fact that we broadly lump all people into either the male / female camp when they are born. It can be useful when talking about gender norms, etc – which are discussions worth having. But when you start to move into the region of "biological sex is unimportant" it takes on an entirely different slant. "AGAB puberty" is an oxymoronic statement. If the gender was merely "assigned" to them, then why is their body naturally going through puberty in a certain direction. It's not their AGAB, it's their biological sex. We are not saying "this is a boy" and then giving them testosterone when they hit 12 so that they match their "assigned" gender. Their body is the body of a boy which naturally produces (much) more testosterone (and other obvious hormonal and physical differences) than that of what we broadly call a girl. Nobody is FORCING anything – that is just something our bodies do naturally because we are a sexually reproducing species of mammal so our DNA causes us to split broadly into male and female.
cycomanic 4y ago
- Joeboy 4y ago
  I'm going to go out on a limb and say adrianN is probably not a Nazi.
- bart_spoon 4y ago
  > Argue based on some extreme strawman You yourself are arguing based on an extreme straw man here. Does that make you a neo-nazi as well? Interestingly, I think you illustrate another important factor in anti-transgender resistance: a subsection of proponents are extremely quick on the trigger to accuse any disagreement of being bigoted, hateful, violent, and, as you have, fascist. This does nothing but drive increasingly negative perceptions towards transgenderism as a concept, both among those who were skeptical and among those who were initially neutral towards the concept. I suggest that if you truly want to further your cause, you should find a way to interact with those who don’t agree with you that doesn’t involve accusing them of being a nazi.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - zemvpferreira 4y ago
    Hear hear. bart_spoon shaped a thought I had but could never crystallize. I'm a hetero cisgendered man that is positive to neutral on trans issues. But I cringe whenever I hear most pro-trans speech and will not stand behind it. Why be so quick to paint anyone who has any reservations about this as genocidal? This is literally the behaviour that pushes me further to the right.
    - nathanaldensr 4y ago
      I had a to leave a Discord server where the owner would respond to trolls with statements like "everyone wants us dead." It happened with increasing frequency and was very unsettling. I couldn't bear to be around someone who saw evil around every corner like that.

lostgame 4y ago

I wish that were the case - but it’s a significantly smaller fraction than it needs to be. The largest fraction of the anti-transgender movement is clearly the American conservative Christian right, who has completely chosen to ignore human rights in favour of Old Testament values. (Source: I’m transgender, and I’m terrified what’s going on in the USA.)

mkmk3 4y ago
The fraction of people who want to prevent children transitioning or claiming youre a different gender, versus people against general body mods, is smaller than it needs to be? That might be a really good point if true.
- Elinvynia 4y ago
  Transitioning for small children is literally just wearing different clothing. When they get a bit older, at most they can extremely rarely (due to people pushing against it, even though it reduces suicide rates and saves lives!) get puberty blockers. Those can then be stopped with minimal consequences if they decide that's not something they wanna do. What is actually cruel is FORCING kids to undergo their AGAB puberty against their will. We know they are safe, we know they save lives. The vast majority of uses for puberty blockers are still cis children that have early puberty.
  - mkmk3 4y ago
    Idk what the effect of taking blockers for 3 years and then realizing its a mistake would be. Do you experience puberty for the same duration, to the same extent? If youre male, are you going to be shorter for instance? Regarding clothing, maybe its just wrong to emphasize gender in the first place? I think a lot of people are cool with kids doing whatever, its just weird when the people around them start really reaffirming the decisions made by someone we dont trust to have autonomy in most things. Maybe transgendered people have some biological or psychological drive thats distinct and not related to the people around them, but if I were around this rhetoric as a kid I can very easily see how it could have wrecked me, considering how I dealt with the subject of gender from pre to late teens. Maybe itd be a worthy price, Im skeptical but trying to make sense of it
    - kuschku 4y ago
      > Idk what the effect of taking blockers for 3 years and then realizing its a mistake would be. Do you experience puberty for the same duration, to the same extent? If youre male, are you going to be shorter for instance? There's no negative effects, as long as you only delay it for a few years (e.g. 10-13) and not too long (you should have entered some puberty around 16, or things get complicated). As soon as you'll stop, your natural puberty starts, with the same duration and effects it'd have normally. Puberty blockers are actually an off-label use when used for trans people. Puberty blockers are originally used for cis kids who enter puberty too early, and this use is far far more common than the use for trans kids. So if they're safe to use on cis kids to delay transition, they're definitely safe for the trans usage as well.
  - fastball 4y ago
    > undergo their AGAB puberty against their will It's also weird mental gymnastics like this that people are pushing against. For anyone who is not familiar with the acronym, AGAB means "Assigned Gender At Birth", and is push back against the fact that we broadly lump all people into either the male / female camp when they are born. It can be useful when talking about gender norms, etc – which are discussions worth having. But when you start to move into the region of "biological sex is unimportant" it takes on an entirely different slant. "AGAB puberty" is an oxymoronic statement. If the gender was merely "assigned" to them, then why is their body naturally going through puberty in a certain direction. It's not their AGAB, it's their biological sex. We are not saying "this is a boy" and then giving them testosterone when they hit 12 so that they match their "assigned" gender. Their body is the body of a boy which naturally produces (much) more testosterone (and other obvious hormonal and physical differences) than that of what we broadly call a girl. Nobody is FORCING anything – that is just something our bodies do naturally because we are a sexually reproducing species of mammal so our DNA causes us to split broadly into male and female.

cycomanic 4y ago

Joeboy 4y ago
I'm going to go out on a limb and say adrianN is probably not a Nazi.
bart_spoon 4y ago
> Argue based on some extreme strawman You yourself are arguing based on an extreme straw man here. Does that make you a neo-nazi as well? Interestingly, I think you illustrate another important factor in anti-transgender resistance: a subsection of proponents are extremely quick on the trigger to accuse any disagreement of being bigoted, hateful, violent, and, as you have, fascist. This does nothing but drive increasingly negative perceptions towards transgenderism as a concept, both among those who were skeptical and among those who were initially neutral towards the concept. I suggest that if you truly want to further your cause, you should find a way to interact with those who don’t agree with you that doesn’t involve accusing them of being a nazi.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- zemvpferreira 4y ago
  Hear hear. bart_spoon shaped a thought I had but could never crystallize. I'm a hetero cisgendered man that is positive to neutral on trans issues. But I cringe whenever I hear most pro-trans speech and will not stand behind it. Why be so quick to paint anyone who has any reservations about this as genocidal? This is literally the behaviour that pushes me further to the right.
  - nathanaldensr 4y ago
    I had a to leave a Discord server where the owner would respond to trolls with statements like "everyone wants us dead." It happened with increasing frequency and was very unsettling. I couldn't bear to be around someone who saw evil around every corner like that.